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Server Time: 3/17/2010 1:20:48 PM PACIFIC |
 Poker is now a sport?, beigs, 22. Sep 2003 12:11 | ||
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| It took me a week, but I finally got to the middle of last week's Sports Illustrated (with Mia Hamm on the cover) when I saw a big picture of a guy who looked a lot like Chris Ferguson. Sure enough, there was an article on poker in a sport's magazine. Pretty good fluff article. beigs | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, EC, 22. Sep 2003 13:45 | ||
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| They ran a great article years ago about turtle racing, which happens at a bar near me. At least that qualifies as a bar sport, albeit one with turtles as athletes. Another note, I think it's hilarious when poker players refer to themselves as athletes. Really demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the definition of the word. Eli on 22. Sep 2003 12:11 beigs wrote: > > It took me a week, but I finally got to the middle of last week's Sports > Illustrated (with Mia Hamm on the cover) when I saw a big picture of a guy who > looked a lot like Chris Ferguson. Sure enough, there was an article on poker in > a sport's magazine. Pretty good fluff article. > > beigs | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, beigs, 22. Sep 2003 14:38 | ||
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| I actually expected SI to run a feature sooner. I remember a couple of years ago when they ran a story about the National Scrabble Championships. If that's a sport, then poker is definitely a sport! And I agree... there isn't much athleticism required for poker. Although, I wouldn't be surprised to see an ephedrine ban at the WSOP soon! :) beigs | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, MozMan, 22. Sep 2003 19:29 | ||
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| I wouldn't say that poker players are necessarily athletes, but I think poker qualifies as a sport, through its competitive nature. -Moz "You can see your reflection in the luminescent dash." | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, stdioh, 25. Sep 2003 10:14 | ||
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| Hey, if curling is an olympic sport then why not poker? (not that I'm complaining as Canada kicks arse in curling consistently) ... for that matter at least with poker you can tell who won ... unlike figure skating where they decide who the winner is going to be before the event actually takes place. | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, beigs, 25. Sep 2003 21:26 | ||
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| Some friends and I actually had that argument about what is a sport and what is not and we determined that a sport is a game in which a winner is clearly decided without the use of a third party (judge, referee, etc.) We will ignore the impact that referees have on basketball or football (those games can be played without them). Thus... poker would be a sport. Still haven't figured out what to do with ski jumping where 'style points' are used to decide the winner. I guess jumping the farthest isn't good enough. beigs on 25. Sep 2003 10:14 stdioh wrote: > Hey, if curling is an olympic sport then why not poker? (not that I'm complaining as > Canada kicks arse in curling consistently) ... for that matter at least with poker you can > tell who won ... unlike figure skating where they decide who the winner is going to be > before the event actually takes place. | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, Lou Krieger, 26. Sep 2003 09:47 | ||
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| on 25. Sep 2003 21:26 beigs wrote: "we determined that a sport is a game in which a winner is clearly decided without the use of a third party (judge, referee, etc.)" So by your definition boxing is not a sport? I hate to say it, but boxing is a sport while poker -- much as I love it -- is merely a game. Still, Sports Illustrated has run articles on "games" before. They've had pieces on chess, scrabble and other games, so why not poker? Although they got a lot of facts wrong and were very confused on some of the things they said in that piece, it's great to see poker getting its due in a mag like SI. That kind of coverage is all good, all the time. Lou Krieger | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, KJo, 26. Sep 2003 10:38 | ||
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| A "sport" requires competition + some sort of athletic ability. Poker is a game or an activity, just like chess, scrabble, etc. Not a sport. Eli on 26. Sep 2003 09:47 Lou Krieger wrote: > on 25. Sep 2003 21:26 beigs wrote: > > "we determined that a sport is a game in which a winner is clearly decided without the use of a > third party (judge, referee, etc.)" > > So by your definition boxing is not a sport? I hate to say it, but boxing is a sport while poker > -- much as I love it -- is merely a game. > > Still, Sports Illustrated has run articles on "games" before. They've had pieces on chess, > scrabble and other games, so why not poker? Although they got a lot of facts wrong and were very > confused on some of the things they said in that piece, it's great to see poker getting its due in a > mag like SI. That kind of coverage is all good, all the time. > > Lou Krieger | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, gary ford, 26. Sep 2003 11:42 | ||
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| on 26. Sep 2003 09:47 Lou Krieger wrote: > on 25. Sep 2003 21:26 beigs wrote: > > "we determined that a sport is a game in which a winner is clearly decided without the use of a > third party (judge, referee, etc.)" > > So by your definition boxing is not a sport? I hate to say it, but boxing is a sport while poker > -- much as I love it -- is merely a game. Welcome Lou, its nice to see that UPF is attracting comments from more and more of the respected writers in poker. Is poker a sport??? one of lifes great imponderables. If SI wants to publicize it thats fine with me and whether its a sport or a game is immaterial. However, the question "is poker gambling " carries new meaning with proposed legislation banning Internet gambling. For years in California, only draw poker was considered a "game of skill" and "stud horse poker" was gambling. Poker interests were able to persuade the legislators that there was as much skill in "stud horse" games such as 7 card and hold 'em and the great California poker boom started. SO, my question to the forum is---- ( is poker gambling )---- we've had practice defending this to our wives, now we may have to take on Congress Protect the boom --Gary Ford > > Still, Sports Illustrated has run articles on "games" before. They've had pieces on chess, > scrabble and other games, so why not poker? Although they got a lot of facts wrong and were very > confused on some of the things they said in that piece, it's great to see poker getting its due in a > mag like SI. That kind of coverage is all good, all the time. > > Lou Krieger | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, Brent, 26. Sep 2003 12:00 | ||
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| Excellent question Gary. With out thinking much, I'm going to spout out an answer. I think yes, poker is gambling. I use this simple point to come to my decision. Playing basketball is competative. Playing one on one for $100 is gambling by its simplist form. Wagering on the outcome of an event. But, so what! Explain to me why it is legal to gamble in Vegas where the casino makes money hand over fist with an advantage in every game but you can get arrested if you have 5 friends over and play poker for money in any other state. It is your money, you can waste it on cigerettes and alcohol any time you want but God forbid you wager it on something. Ok, my rant is over. | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, gary ford, 26. Sep 2003 15:39 | ||
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| on 26. Sep 2003 12:00 Brent wrote: > Excellent question Gary. With out thinking much, I'm going to spout out an answer. I think yes, poker is > gambling. I use this simple point to come to my decision. Playing basketball is competative. Playing one on > one for $100 is gambling by its simplist form. Wagering on the outcome of an event. But, so what! Explain > to me why it is legal to gamble in Vegas where the casino makes money hand over fist with an advantage in > every game but you can get arrested if you have 5 friends over and play poker for money in any other state. > It is your money, you can waste it on cigerettes and alcohol any time you want but God forbid you wager it on > something. Ok, my rant is over. Thats not a rant that's a legitimate question. Policemen generally have more common sense than legislators, and it would be very unusual if you got arrested in a home game. The difference here is between " banked games"--the casino games you describe and poker where the house has no interest in the outcome but merely rents tables and provides dealers. Poker needs to be a legal "exception" wherever there is no house advantage. All this may sound strange, but the internet has created situations that no one knows how to deal with ie, downloading music.Argument # 1 centers around states right.s. In the bill passed by the House on June 10, states would decide whether they want to legalize Internet "gambling". The Senate bill currently being considered proibitstate from legalizing casino gambling. Oddly enough,according to the author of the Senate bll, Sen Kyl (R--AZ) there is a conflict between the casino interests and the tribal gaming interests. His conclusion---"it may be necesary to choose ( between the tribal gaming interests and mainstream casinos) " Ah---politics-- The senate bill is currently in committee and Sen. Harry Reid, of Nevada has expressed considerable concerns, echoing the position of the gaming industry. Argument # 2--the so-called California argument, says poker is not gambling but a game of skill. After 100 years and some significant lobbying, the Calif, legislature agreed. hence stud , hold-em and omaha in California Guard the boom--Gary | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, Mark, 26. Sep 2003 16:31 | ||
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| > we've had practice defending this to our wives, > Man have i ever. Its funny though, she never complains when i spend poker money on her. I don't like the idea of calling Poker gambling for a few reasons. I prefer to explain it as a game of skill. 1. ) While the element of chance is inherent in the game, skill is the long term determing factor of who wins. Everybody aggrees that the better players will eventually win, just as in sport. This is much different from roulette. 2.) If we as players decide to call it gambling, legislators may lump it together with other gambling games and regulate it as such. It may be very advantageous to be separated from "gambling" as was done in california. 3. ) With the boom poker is currently experiencing, it is very good for the game to shed the seedy, backroom images. This helps to bring the game into mainstream society. By eliminating "gambling" as a descriptor for poker, people may be much more open to it, allowing for more card rooms all over North America. Eliminating the "degenerate gambler" stereotype would be advantageous for many players (or would be players). Whether it's "gambling" or not, WE must separated it from games of chance. If the poker society stood together and demanded that Poker be called a game of skill (like darts), it could really help along the current boom. This may make it harder for legislators to make laws prohibiting poker in any form. Mark | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, stdioh, 26. Sep 2003 14:54 | ||
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| Boxing can have a clear winner though, depending on the rules used. If there is a knockout then that is that. After that you score by the number of falls a combatant has in a round and see who wins more rounds. After that you go to who landed more punches. True, deciding what was a landed punch, deciding what counts as a TKO, etc, etc all uses referees, but the statistical density is there. In boxing the winner is the guy who truely wins the fight. | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, gary ford, 26. Sep 2003 15:08 | ||
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| Don't try to tell Bob Arum that | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, Lou Krieger, 28. Sep 2003 06:23 | ||
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| on 26. Sep 2003 14:54 stdioh wrote: "In boxing the winner is the guy who truely wins the fight." I've been a fight fan since I was a kid. How I wish your statement were true. The number of clearly bad and wrong decisions in boxing staggers me. But I guess it shouldn't since the promoter usually chooses the judges, and when Don King is running things, one can always expect the unexpected. Lou Krieger Host at Royal Vegas Poker | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, beigs, 28. Sep 2003 07:49 | ||
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| on 26. Sep 2003 09:47 Lou Krieger wrote: > So by your definition boxing is not a sport? I hate to say it, but boxing is a sport while poker > -- much as I love it -- is merely a game. No... boxing is definitely a sport. You don't need the referee or judges to determine the winner in boxing. They could just fight until someone doesn't get up, or gets knocked down a certain number of times. The judges are a relatively modern addition to the sport. Boxing, in it's truest form is a fight to the finish. Therefore, it's a sport. The original argument stemmed from trying to determine if golf was a sport. Someone said no because fat, unhealthy people could play golf and be good at it. In all honesty, I don't really believe our definition, but it was something we could all agree on, in principle. And thanks for wrting Lou. Never thought I'd see you here. beigs | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, stdioh, 26. Sep 2003 15:02 | ||
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| I think that a sport must require a physical element to it. My ideas of what should qualify as a sport: An activity which meets all of the following requirements: 1) competition - 2 or more athletes compete against eachother or a single athlete competes against a record set by another. There is clearly a winner or there is a draw when there is no reasonable way to determine a winner. 2) Physical component. One of the three of Citius, Altius, Fortius must play into the competition. That is, speed, strength, dexterity, or some combination thereof must play a role in the event. For example darts involve dexterity, weightlifting strength, and footracing speed. 3) Determinism. For something to be a sport all endeavours *must* be made to eliminate random chance from it. That means that competitors use equipment meeting some standard, compete under similar circumstances, etc. Some variance can be induced in the form of handicapping, but it must be directed to give an unfair advantage to the poorer competitor in order to level the field. Chess, is deterministic, but poker is non-deterministic. There are random events which happen and change the outcome of the event significantly and these random events are built into the game. So simply we get a definition that requires physical prowess, competition, and elimination of a random element. Poker only has 1 of those three things. | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, Jav, 26. Sep 2003 15:20 | ||
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| Excellent explanation. That meets my requirements for a sport to be a sport with a good basis to back it up. | ||
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| YES!, Urban Chaos, 27. Sep 2003 06:17 | ||
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| Stdioh, My definition has always been that an activity needs 3 things to qualify it as a Sport: 1) Competition 2) Physical activity through exertion. (I define that, for example, as requiring more than moving chess pieces around) 3) Skill. (The game supports the notion that better players will perform better...a sort of weaker version of your Determinsm.) I've always liked my definitions. I think now I'm leaning toward yours. Poker = game, Bowling = sport, Chess = game, Golf = sport. Sadly, by my standards, arm wresting qualifies as a sport. LOL -Urban "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people; and if you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you. " | ||
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| Re: YES!, chasepoker, 28. Sep 2003 06:28 | ||
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| So tidlywinks must be a sport :-) on 27. Sep 2003 06:17 Urban Chaos wrote: > Stdioh, > > My definition has always been that an activity needs 3 things to qualify it as a Sport: > > 1) Competition > > 2) Physical activity through exertion. (I define that, for example, as requiring more than moving chess > pieces around) > > 3) Skill. (The game supports the notion that better players will perform better...a sort of weaker > version of your Determinsm.) > > I've always liked my definitions. I think now I'm leaning toward yours. > > > Poker = game, Bowling = sport, Chess = game, Golf = sport. Sadly, by my standards, arm wresting > qualifies as a sport. LOL > > -Urban > > "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people; and if you're smart, surround yourself with smart > people who disagree with you. " > Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: YES!, Urban Chaos, 29. Sep 2003 00:53 | ||
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| Tiddlywinks? Heh, no. There's no "Physical Exertion," chase...unless one is a complete wuss. ; ) -Urban "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people; and if you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you. " | ||
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| Re: YES!, chasepoker, 29. Sep 2003 04:46 | ||
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| Man it was a big Friday night, yesterday tiddlewinks would have been like running a marathon.. :-) on 29. Sep 2003 00:53 Urban Chaos wrote: > Tiddlywinks? Heh, no. There's no "Physical Exertion," chase...unless one is a complete wuss. ; ) > > -Urban > > "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people; and if you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who > disagree with you. " Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, Bungus, 2. Oct 2003 00:05 | ||
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| Hey, but according to these rules, poker is a sport, so long as you're a mechanic. Bottom dealing and other forms of cheating takes dexterity. just being a wise ass ps, actually, bluffing, an important element in poker, while it doesn't invole strength speeed, or dexterity, does involve a certain amount of fortitude. Whether this is mental or physical could be debated. By some one else. I still think I'd have to agree with you | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, johnph77, 27. Sep 2003 21:05 | ||
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| Interesting, and parallels my thinking. The comments on boxing are valid, though, since the match may or may not be decided by a knockout. And there has been more than one boxer robbed by bad decisions. On the other hand, "sports" such as figure skating, ice dancing, and most of the so-called "extreme sports", where the outcome is determined only by third-party judges, even though they may involve athletes, I regard simply as exhibitions. | ||
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| Re: Poker is now a sport?, mroban, 28. Sep 2003 08:09 | ||
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| well, swimsuit modeling isn't a sport either but hey, if it sells magazines. | ||
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