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Server Time: 2/12/2012 11:40:43 PM PACIFIC |
 setNgo limit HE tournies, Don Quixote, 21. Sep 2003 21:08 | ||
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| I have never played much tourney poker because I am not too good at it, but recently I decided to give the sitNgo tournies a try. I played a few $5 ones and did only so so. I then tried the $10 ones and did much better. My tracker stats show I played 41 of the $10 tournies, winning 8 of them, finishing 2nd in 9 of them and 3rd in four of them. I netted $299 altogether for a per tourney win rate of $7.29 per tourney. I think the tournies average about an hour each. I am making twice as much money as I have been in the .50/1. ring games. I also find the tournies a lot of fun: more exciting and challenging. I am not after the big bucks, so this seems a no brainer. I have no comparative stats to tell me whether finishing in slightly over half the time in the money is fair, good or excellent. Can anyone help me out here? I realize the number of games is probably not enough from which to draw conclusions, but I feel like I am playing well and learning all the time. Barry T's article in the current issue of card player is excellent and contained two points that will be very helpful to me: drawing to suited connectors in tournies and betting to prevent someone else from taking the lead, thus putting me in the position of making the tough decisions. I am already putting the latter tactics to use when playing heads up. Barry's article was one of the first articles I have read about proper play in these tournies. His example tourney is a $100 one, but so far it doesnt seem to be at odds with play in the $10 ones. I have been hoping to start a thread here on sit&go tournies. It doesnt seem to have been a subject which has received many postings. I would love to share my thoughts with you good folks and let you critique them and add your own strategy/tactics. With Barry and the other pros to guide us, maybe we could come up with a UPF treatise on sit and go tournaments. What do you all think? Don Quixote | ||
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| Re: setNgo limit HE tournies, coach, 22. Sep 2003 07:06 | ||
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| Don I think your results are excellent...combination of good luck and good play....a bit of both is needed to succeed in these....The biggest tip I have to offer and is mentioned in that article is ...getting reckless unneccesarily...how many times I have been big or 2nd stack and have had a guy foolisly "challenge" me with a poor hand...smart play and average luck will keep this a payday...I make the $$ about 43% so keep up the good work!! | ||
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| Re: setNgo limit HE tournies, Grateful Rooster, 22. Sep 2003 08:01 | ||
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| Don't know how your results compare, as I have not played enough SNGs either. But, I would very much appreciate a good SNG thread. I play 10+1 NL mostly and find that tables vary between very tight and very loose. Most often I see a few fast and loose (and bad) players that go out early, leaving tight and aggressive players. Seems to suggest a strategy of tight play early, then moving more loose and aggressive as numbers dwindle, your relative stack increases (hopefully), and blinds increase. But then, I still make some mistakes on individual hands that can put me out, so it's hard for me to tell if this is an effective tourney strategy. NL places a premium on mistakes. What do y'all think? --GR | ||
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| Re: setNgo limit HE tournies, Don Quixote, 22. Sep 2003 09:39 | ||
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| Rooster, I havent played enough NL tournies to offer any help, but "tight is right" in limit tournies seems to be right. I play very tight in the first 3 levels, gradually loosening up when the situation calls for it. As coach said, luck is a big part of these short, 1-table tournies. Also, as Tom McEvoy suggests in his book, "you have to give yourself a chance to get lucky." How does one do that? By patiently waiting for the right starting cards. Of course, in s&g's, one does not have too much time to wait; however, patience still pays off. Maybe not in one tourney, but it does in the long run. I don't think I have enough games yet to consider it in the long run, but it appears to work for me. When the table gets down to only 4 or 5 players, one must allow the other players to knock each other out. Stack size and blinds enter heavily into any decisions here. If you make it to the final two players, you cant wait for cards. Instead, bet, raise, reraise, etc. seems to be the ticket. Bet and raise will do the trick most of the time. At least, it does for me. I try to put the decision on the other player whether to call my raise or reraise. I anxiously await hearing what everyone else on this forum has to say. Don Quixote on 22. Sep 2003 08:01 Grateful Rooster wrote: > Don't know how your results compare, as I have not played enough SNGs either. But, I > would very much appreciate a good SNG thread. I play 10+1 NL mostly and find that > tables vary between very tight and very loose. Most often I see a few fast and loose > (and bad) players that go out early, leaving tight and aggressive players. Seems to > suggest a strategy of tight play early, then moving more loose and aggressive as > numbers dwindle, your relative stack increases (hopefully), and blinds increase. > > But then, I still make some mistakes on individual hands that can put me out, so > it's hard for me to tell if this is an effective tourney strategy. NL places a > premium on mistakes. > > What do y'all think? > > --GR | ||
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| Re: setNgo limit HE tournies, beigs, 22. Sep 2003 09:50 | ||
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| Hey Don, I think you're right on the money when it comes to limit tourneys. I play very tightly for the first few rounds, staying right around my starting chips. When it gets to 6 or 7 I loosen up and am able to build a little bit of a stack because I was so tight early. Then when it gets down to 4 I get very aggressive. At that point, the other players can't figure out what I'm playing and either call with weak hands or fold. By the time it's heads up I usually have a large enough stack where I can bully the other player. I too have not played enough SnG's to have an accurate statistical base but I finish in the money around half the time and when I do, I usually win. It's strange actually. I'm either knocked out on the bubble or I win. I don't think I've finished third more than twice and I've never finished second. Hehe... I'll have to figure out why. beigs | ||
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| Re: setNgo limit HE tournies, Barry T, 22. Sep 2003 11:21 | ||
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| Hi. Thanks for reading my column. It is the first in a series of three (which will take three months as I am only in even-numbered issues).about this tournament. I am far from an expert in SNGs, but I did think that there was enough material that folks would get something out of it. Your results are excelent. 50% is a very good overlay in tournaments. In the final article, I will summarize the key points. For me, number one in any tournament is to not put yourself all-in. I do not really understand why people feel like they have to get their last chips in. I assume it is because they do not want to end the hand with one or two chips. Well, that s INFINITELY better than ending the hand with no chips! Patience is key, as is understanding what hands to play and when. I notice a lot of folks int his thread offer the advice to play very tight early. My opinion is that this does not seem entirely consistent with math. Why would you want to deliberately wait until you must play one hand out for the whole tournament if you do not have to. Of course, if the cards do not come, then play tight. But my personal philosophy is to take an early shot at gathering a lot of chips. If that does not work the one or two times I try, then I revert to tight-is-right. If I happen to get some chips early, I can use them in a variety of ways, including waiting for the field to eliminate itself or raising short stacks. BarryT | ||
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| Re: setNgo limit HE tournies, beigs, 22. Sep 2003 12:07 | ||
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| Hey Barry, Good advice, indeed. For me, the philosophy of 'play tight early', especially in the lower buy in SnG's I play (10+1), is based on the fact that half the table will eliminate themselves. In the mean time, you play solid starting hands and build where you can, but don't let the looser players (who won't respect your bets) get lucky. By playing tightly, when it gets down to 6 or 5 people, you will still have plenty of chips to work with and you will be loosening up while the rest of the table gets really tight allowing you to steal and bluff players out of 100 chips instead of 15 or 30. I hope that makes sense... it's worked for me! :) beigs | ||
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| Re: setNgo limit HE tournies, Don Quixote, 22. Sep 2003 13:06 | ||
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| Thanks Barry. At the first 2 or 3 levels, but esp the first, I will call unraised borderline hands from late positiion; and if I dont connect with the flop, I fold. When I find myself losing a couple of pots early, I tighten up a lot and try to build my stack in the middle levels. Like beigs, I too, start stealing blinds as soon as I feel it is correct. I project a tight image making it much easier to steal blinds or even steal a pot. I rarely bluff on the river. Instead I do my bluffing earlier in the hand when opponents aren't expecting it (hoping this is a correct strategy). Your thoughts on saving a chip or two instead of going all in rings a bell. I intuitively do that sometimes, and have come back to place in the money with only a chip. When I screw up and dont do this and lose, I bemoan my stupidity from the other side of the rail telling myself I know better. Sometimes my ego gets in the way of logic and common sense :-) Your post in this regard will reinforce my behavior in tuture tournies. I appreciate your response, Barry, and your CP column and look forward to the other articles in the sit-and-go series. . The give and take in this forum is most helpful. I am already getting a lot out of this thread. Thanks to the others that are responding also. Don Quixote on 22. Sep 2003 11:21 Barry T wrote: > Hi. Thanks for reading my column. It is the first in a series of three (which will > take three months as I am only in even-numbered issues).about this tournament. I am > far from an expert in SNGs, but I did think that there was enough material that folks > would get something out of it. > > Your results are excelent. 50% is a very good overlay in tournaments. > > In the final article, I will summarize the key points. For me, number one in any > tournament is to not put yourself all-in. I do not really understand why people feel > like they have to get their last chips in. I assume it is because they do not want > to end the hand with one or two chips. Well, that s INFINITELY better than ending > the hand with no chips! > > Patience is key, as is understanding what hands to play and when. I notice a lot of > folks int his thread offer the advice to play very tight early. My opinion is that > this does not seem entirely consistent with math. Why would you want to deliberately > wait until you must play one hand out for the whole tournament if you do not have to. > > > Of course, if the cards do not come, then play tight. But my personal philosophy is > to take an early shot at gathering a lot of chips. If that does not work the one or > two times I try, then I revert to tight-is-right. If I happen to get some chips > early, I can use them in a variety of ways, including waiting for the field to > eliminate itself or raising short stacks. > > BarryT | ||
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| Re: setNgo limit HE tournies, palman, 22. Sep 2003 15:50 | ||
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| Barry- actually after reading your post I thought you were playing too loose early =) I'm one of the players that suggest playing tight early, although this is the difference between the 100 dollar tables and the 30 and lower tables. I've played a few hundreds but my main earning table is the 30 dollar SnG tables. The reason I suggest playing tight earlier is because in the 100 dollar tables, the standard raise may be 3-4 times the blinds, compared to about a 5-6 times the blind standard raise at the smaller tables. People play any ace, so I noticed your one hand that might have been A6s... you're guaranteed to be up against another ace either with a higher kicker, or a lower kicker that has paired up. A flop like A J 9 every single person with a gutshot will stay around, even if you make it way too much for them to do so, so I consider most anything Under AQ garbage, except sometimes with AJ, although I won't limp with it just because I like to be against one or two other players so I better know where I stand in the hand. Limping in in the early rounds of a SnG just doesnt work because you can never put anyone on a hand. So I won't play a hand unless I can raise or withstand a raise. I wait for a pp and hope it gives me a set, or just really premium cards... AA, KK, AK or AQ. I usually won't stay in with a decent raise with KQ. When shorthanded play comes and the blinds are 1/4 of your stack, being known as a loose player (which people associate with seeing a lot of flops) is going to kill you, because your stack is going to be on the line a few times in most tournaments, so here is where playing tight early pays dividends, because people will respect your raises when the blinds are 150/300... however if they see you playing a lot of hands they may call you more loosely. And no matter how good your cards, if people are going to play at you more often, they'll bust you more often as well. Playing more hands early and making them see you will not only play premium cards one could argue would have the advantage by getting action late in the game with a real hand, unfortunately in the hour-long tournaments the blinds get so high so quickly that you aren't going to get enough "great" hands in order to have that pay off. In a table with 4 people at 800 chips, and 3 people with 1600 chips 7 handed, I figure my chances for first are 1/7... which are better than my chances 10 handed, so if I don't get any premium cards I don't even worry about it for the first 30 hands or so. Every 10 hands you'll have 3 all ins by someone, and if I don't have a hand that can withstand an all in I'd rather not play it. | ||
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| Re: setNgo limit HE tournies, Barry T, 22. Sep 2003 17:32 | ||
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| Hi. I apreciate the thoughts. I just want to make sure we are playing the same event. I am playing a LIMIT hold'em SNG. A loose play early costs 2-4 small bets unless I hit something major. I am not faced with all-ins. I agree that in NL, you have to lay tight from the start, especially with aces. i would never have played my A8s in a NL SnG. BarryT | ||
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| Re: setNgo limit HE tournies, palman, 22. Sep 2003 20:20 | ||
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| It's amazing how reading the title of threads can often be important if you wish to make useful replies or critiques =) In the limit sit n go's I find on pp the blinds just go up way too high that luck is just such a huge factor. In the 7 card stud games, by the time there are 5 people left everyone just has one hand they can play till the end and that's it. | ||
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| Re: setNgo limit HE tournies, gary ford, 22. Sep 2003 17:57 | ||
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| Poker is a game of skill------- Logged on to a plsng--waiting for it to fill up, i fell asleep. When i awoke the tourney was underway,and i had T550. Still groggy i played a hand i dont normally play ( KQo) and won. Went on to win.. Played another and won it too. You just never know. Play soundly and when the cards start to come go for it. Fuel the boom---Gary | ||
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| Re: setNgo limit HE tournies, coach, 22. Sep 2003 19:36 | ||
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| A tip...I've won 2 sng's..with 50 left before the hand was dealt....could have unwisely tossed it in the hand prior...keep in the game anything can happen...having said that ...take an opponent out when given the chance..if it does not affect your stack significantly | ||
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