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staying to long with TP/TK, Flatout_Mainiac, 21. Sep 2003 05:22
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I think I might me paying off too many low straights and sets, and junk two pairs especially to loose aggressive type player. Am I too aggressive on these hands? I have trouble putting people on hands that I wouldn't be caught dead with.

Here is a typical hand and a typical way I play this type of hand. Please offer comments if any

1/2 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Sat Sep 13 21:31:38 EDT 2003
Table Survivors (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: homework0525 ( $68.50)
Seat 2: turk8m ( $37.50)
Seat 3: FR_Mainiac ( $37.50)
Seat 4: MucksaLot ( $46)
Seat 5: mhbgoblue ( $47.50)
Seat 6: sbcslim ( $89)
Seat 7: Bozoclown ( $17.25)
Seat 8: hilopro ( $29.50)
Seat 9: Gryzlyu ( $45)
Seat 10: dreamnbeauty ( $35.50)
FR_Mainiac posts small blind (0.50)
MucksaLot posts big blind (1)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to FR_Mainiac [ Qh, Kc ]
mhbgoblue calls (1)
sbcslim calls (1)
Bozoclown folds.
hilopro calls (1)
Gryzlyu folds.
dreamnbeauty calls (1)
homework0525 calls (1)
turk8m folds.
FR_Mainiac calls (0.50)
MucksaLot checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Jh, Ks, 6s ]
FR_Mainiac bets (1)
MucksaLot folds.
mhbgoblue calls (1)
sbcslim calls (1)
hilopro folds.
dreamnbeauty calls (1)
homework0525 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 9c ]
FR_Mainiac bets (2)
mhbgoblue calls (2)
sbcslim folds.
dreamnbeauty raises (4) to 4
FR_Mainiac raises (4) to 6
mhbgoblue folds.
dreamnbeauty calls (2)
** Dealing River ** : [ 3d ]
FR_Mainiac bets (2)
dreamnbeauty calls (2)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $28 | Rake: $1
Board: [ Jh Ks 6s 9c 3d ]
homework0525 balance $67.50, lost $1 (folded)
turk8m balance $37.50, didn't bet (folded)
FR_Mainiac balance $27.50, lost $10 [ Qh Kc ] [ a pair of kings -- Kc,Ks,Qh,Jh,9c ]
MucksaLot balance $45, lost $1 (folded)
mhbgoblue balance $43.50, lost $4 (folded)
sbcslim balance $87, lost $2 (folded)
Bozoclown balance $17.25, didn't bet (folded)
hilopro balance $28.50, lost $1 (folded)
Gryzlyu balance $45, didn't bet (folded)
dreamnbeauty balance $53.50, bet $10, collected $28, net +$18 [ Kd 6d ] [ two pairs, kings and sixes -- Kd,Ks,Jh,6d,6s ]
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Re: staying to long with TP/TK, 4 POKER, 21. Sep 2003 06:16
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Hey,

Sometimes it's hard to put very loose opponents on certain hands, such as the one you mentioned with the player who held K-6. However, with a board of K-J-6 and several callers calling your lead out bet on the flop...although your hand is good, (top pair, good kicker)....the flop is still kind of coordinated somewhat that would lead me to believe, that the nine that came on the turn was not that good of a card for you anymore. Players play all sorts of starting hands that would have connected somewhere with that board. Hands like, K-J, K-9, Q-10, J-9, and even pocket 6's for a set.

Now once you lead at the turn and get 'raised', I really don't see the point of re-raising there. You may be trying to get someone else to fold so your own hand can hold up, but imo, your hand is not strong enough now to be that overly aggresive with either....especialy when you showed no improvement on the river, and you came out swingin' again.

When you did bet the flop, he only called you...so by given *that* information, would have to tell me that he was either waiting to see the turn card for improvement, or he aldready flopped something stronger than what you had. Whether he 'got there' on the turn, or had you beat already on the flop...the way the betting went down......I'd put him on either a straight (on the turn), or at *least* two pair.

With the amount of players that are in the hand, given my poor position, I would have either checked the turn, and then see where the real hands were, OR, you can bet the turn (being that there were only three of you in there at this point), and then when it gets raised, you can call if you feel your hand warrants a call, (depending on many factors),...or... you can fold. Yeah, you might wind up folding a winner away sometimes.... but if you were to check the turn, if someone now bets and perhaps gets *raised*, you may have a clearer indication to where you stand more; when you're referring to hands that are 'good'....but may not be quite good enough to call heavy betting with.

I would have backed off from re-raising him there, and I would have check-called the river as long as it didn't get raised by someone else who may have 'woken up' some where with a real hand!...(or at least a hand that I thought would be better than top pair, being that the pot was now raised).

Even if you were to hit a good card on the river....the only card that may help you would be a 10 for a straight, because a Q would be a very dangerous card for you with that board, and it would 'have' to be a Q that did not bring a flush as well. Grant it, in "this" particular hand, a J or a 9 would have helped you to beat the player with the Kings and sixes because his paired sixes wouldn't play anymore.....but I'm referring to what I think can happen, more often; especially with cooand I would have checked the river and would make my decision to either call the one bet (depending on how many overcallers were in there, if any, and if I thought my hand had a good enough chance at being the best hand; whether it's this particular hand, or 'any' other hand that your faced with making that decision)....and I would fold the hand if it got bet by someone, and then rdinated boards when your hand doesn't improve.

There's nothing wrong with being aggresive, and you don't have to go into a check and call mode all the time either.....it's when you overplay a hand that can wind up costing you way more than it should.


4 POKER
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Re: staying to long with TP/TK, Scott Learned, 21. Sep 2003 12:10
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I agree with 4 POKER. I also write to point out that you did not in fact have top pair/top kicker as your post's subject line suggested. Instead, you had top pair, excellent kicker. The raiser could have been slowplaying AK and waited until the turn to raise. Although that is not how you or I would play AK, it is undoubtedly how some play, especially at the lower limits. If someone does have AK, you are virtually sunk.

As 4 POKER also points out, there are lots of legitimate holdings that late-position players might have limped with. With seven people seeing the flop, you should be very careful with top pair, excellent (but not top) kicker. You are already beat by lots of hands (KJ, JJ, 99, AK), and many other legitimate hands have excellent odds to draw against you (like QT, Ax of spades, or even something like JT of spades, which is close to even money to your hand on the flop). Although you happened to get beat by a non-traditional (i.e. piece of cheese) holding in this instance, you were vulnerable in any event and should have been on your guard.

Thus, bet the flop, but with four callers be careful. Bet the turn if you still like it, but know that you are vulnerable.

Of course, your re-raise did drive out mhbgoblue...
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Re: staying to long with TP/TK, Flatout_Mainiac, 21. Sep 2003 15:26
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Thanks for the replies and thanks Scott for the clarification. I couldn't find a TP/TK example in my hand history but I have been playing TP/EK (excellent kicker) essential the same way.

I agree with the reponses in that I need to do a better job of not ignoring what the betting of my opponents are telling me especially in hands that I strongly believe i'm leading the flop with.

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Re: staying to long with TP/TK, Roy Cooke, 22. Sep 2003 06:22
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Hi Flatout-Maniac (I like that name :-)

It is tough to get away from hands against loose players that have a wide range of hands possible. Sometimes you can get away from those hands if you can put your opponent(s) on a thought, but generally in limit poker, a large pot and an unsure situation you are going to have to pay off.....It is no fun looking at those hands...but it is part of poker.....Suck it up and play the next hand without getting emotional about the last one.

Roy Cooke

on 21. Sep 2003 05:22 Flatout_Mainiac wrote:
>
> I think I might me paying off too many low straights and sets, and junk two
> pairs especially to loose aggressive type player. Am I too aggressive on these
> hands? I have trouble putting people on hands that I wouldn't be caught dead
> with.
>
> Here is a typical hand and a typical way I play this type of hand. Please offer
> comments if any
>
> 1/2 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Sat Sep 13 21:31:38 EDT 2003
> Table Survivors (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
> Total number of players : 10
> Seat 1: homework0525 ( $68.50)
> Seat 2: turk8m ( $37.50)
> Seat 3: FR_Mainiac ( $37.50)
> Seat 4: MucksaLot ( $46)
> Seat 5: mhbgoblue ( $47.50)
> Seat 6: sbcslim ( $89)
> Seat 7: Bozoclown ( $17.25)
> Seat 8: hilopro ( $29.50)
> Seat 9: Gryzlyu ( $45)
> Seat 10: dreamnbeauty ( $35.50)
> FR_Mainiac posts small blind (0.50)
> MucksaLot posts big blind (1)
> ** Dealing down cards **
> Dealt to FR_Mainiac [ Qh, Kc ]
> mhbgoblue calls (1)
> sbcslim calls (1)
> Bozoclown folds.
> hilopro calls (1)
> Gryzlyu folds.
> dreamnbeauty calls (1)
> homework0525 calls (1)
> turk8m folds.
> FR_Mainiac calls (0.50)
> MucksaLot checks.
> ** Dealing Flop ** : [ Jh, Ks, 6s ]
> FR_Mainiac bets (1)
> MucksaLot folds.
> mhbgoblue calls (1)
> sbcslim calls (1)
> hilopro folds.
> dreamnbeauty calls (1)
> homework0525 folds.
> ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 9c ]
> FR_Mainiac bets (2)
> mhbgoblue calls (2)
> sbcslim folds.
> dreamnbeauty raises (4) to 4
> FR_Mainiac raises (4) to 6
> mhbgoblue folds.
> dreamnbeauty calls (2)
> ** Dealing River ** : [ 3d ]
> FR_Mainiac bets (2)
> dreamnbeauty calls (2)
> ** Summary **
> Main Pot: $28 | Rake: $1
> Board: [ Jh Ks 6s 9c 3d ]
> homework0525 balance $67.50, lost $1 (folded)
> turk8m balance $37.50, didn't bet (folded)
> FR_Mainiac balance $27.50, lost $10 [ Qh Kc ] [ a pair of kings --
> Kc,Ks,Qh,Jh,9c ]
> MucksaLot balance $45, lost $1 (folded)
> mhbgoblue balance $43.50, lost $4 (folded)
> sbcslim balance $87, lost $2 (folded)
> Bozoclown balance $17.25, didn't bet (folded)
> hilopro balance $28.50, lost $1 (folded)
> Gryzlyu balance $45, didn't bet (folded)
> dreamnbeauty balance $53.50, bet $10, collected $28, net +$18 [ Kd 6d ] [ two
> pairs, kings and sixes -- Kd,Ks,Jh,6d,6s ]
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