|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 8/30/2008 2:53:06 AM PACIFIC |
 Weak Play?, Pamela, 19. Sep 2003 11:14 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I'm less a year Hold'em player. .Advice on this play please. $25 NL Ring I'm dealt [ 9h, 9c ] Preflop 1.Z folds 2.SI folds 3.AY calls . 50 4..DV folds 5. J calls 6.JW folds 7. I call...(maybe I should of raised here.) I don't like to raise before the flop. 8. SB calls 9. BB checks Flop [ Js, Kd, 9d ] SB Bets $2. BB calls AY folds J calls I call (maybe i should of raised here) Turn [ 2s ] SB bets $3 BB raised $6 J folds I fold ( feeling sicks SB calls River [ 5h ] SB checks BB checks and wins with a pair of k's with a 3 Kicker .. I had to laugh at this point At myself ......Ok so Any advice? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play? - Posting advice/preference, Mark, 19. Sep 2003 11:19 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi Pamela This is not just to you, but everyone who posts hands. It is much easier to help with a hand if you give more info that just the basic facts. What was the table like, the specific opponents in the hand, etc. Those factors do have an impact on the decision making process. Was one of your opponents a complete maniac betting every hand, or was that the first hand played in 45 min? Thanks Mark | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play? - Posting advice/preference, Pamela, 19. Sep 2003 11:30 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Sb was a tight player small stack as well. BB Blew the table away .. I'll Keep In mind more info is needed for next post.. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, Eman, 19. Sep 2003 11:25 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Bet the flop with your set. Hopefully this will eliminate any players going for flush or st8 draws. I still dont understand why you folded? You might want to start reading some poker literature and understand odds and strength of hands | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, Pamela, 19. Sep 2003 11:47 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Yes I agree . Any recommendations? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, Schuster, 19. Sep 2003 12:20 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| My first suggestion would be to move to limit games rather than no limit. There are less errors you can make in a limit game since you only have 3 options to choose from each time it is your turn. As far as literature is concerned, "Winning Low Limit Hold'em" by Lee Jones is an excellent book for the beginning player. I've also heard good things about "Poker for Dummies" by Lou Krieger. Although I have not read it myself, I've read other works by Lou, and they have been excellent. As far as the hand goes... I'll go over it round by round and how I would have played it. This assumes typical opponents, and unfortunately, things can drastically change in no limit games based on how your opponents play. Preflop, your nines are good, but the are probably not strong enough to stand a big reraise. Depending on the game, I may just call, or I may raise with them. If my opponents will respect my raise and give me credit for a good hand, I will be more apt to raise and either take the money already out there or get it heads up against one other player. However, in your situation, I think that just calling is the right play. Playing medium pairs after the flop is one of the most difficult things to learn (at least it was for me, I'm still far from done learning) and since you are still learning, it might be better to just call and see how the board comes. You did mention that you don't like to raise before the flop, and while that is ok with a hand like 99, you must raise with your premium hands to get people out of the pot. If you pick up a big pair and don't raise the pot, you are inviting people in that can beat you. A big pair is a strong hand, but it is fragile. Limping with a hand like QQ in no limit is a serious error in most games, in my opinion. Now, on the flop, you have to be thinking about the size of the pot, what your opponents are representing with their bet, and what holdings they may have. Right now, you have bottom set, which is a fairly powerful holding on the flop. The only hands that can beat you right now are JJ or KK for a higher set, and QT for the straight. Generally people will raise before the flop with JJ or KK, and you cannot be paranoid of a bigger set when you do flop a set. Play it strongly unless you really think someone has that higher set. If someone has QT, you do have a reasonable chance of making a full house by the river. The hands that are not beating you but have a reasonable chance of making a hand that do beat you are any hands with a ten or a queen that could pick up a straight, or any two diamonds for the flush draw. Also, if someone has KJ, they might make a higher full house than you. Take note of how many more hands there are here than there are hands that are beating you. There are a lot of hands with a ten or a queen in them, and there are a lot of hands with two diamonds. While you are a pretty decent favorite over these hands, you don't want them in the pot cheaply. If they want to play, you have to make them pay. The pot is $2.50 and the first player bets $2. That is a reasonable bet, but you need to raise here. He may be betting just a king with good kicker, but you do not want people calling just $2.50 and beating you. Making it around $8 (as per Mark's suggestion) would weed out drawing hands, and that is what you want, as they are the hands that will most likely beat you. Now the turn card is a total blank. There is no hand that you were beating before that has overtaken you with that 2. If you felt your hand was best on the flop, it is still the best hand, and you should play it as such. The pot is currently $10 and the small blind bets out $3. The bet is small compared to the size of the pot and you should take note of that. The next player then makes a minimum raise to $6, again not even close to the size of the pot. This suggests to me that neither player has an overly strong hand. Any hand that they could have that they might be slowplaying to sucker you in is in danger of being overtaken, and they should know that. If they have the straight, there is the flush danger. Even if they have QT of diamonds, they still have to worry about redraws to the full house, and with that board, a player could have 2 pair very easily. After just calling the flop, you really need to press your hand here. You didn't say how much you had in front of you, but making a pot sized raise would probably put you close to all in, and frankly, that isn't so bad. Folding is that absolute last thing you want to do. Again, think about what people had from the flop. If I was in your shoes on the turn, I'd make a pot sized raise. To calculate a pot sized raise, figure your call into the pot, and then make it that much more on top of the call. In this instance, there is $10 in the pot plus the first players $3 bet plus the next players $6 bet for a total of $19. Once you add in your $6 call, the total is $25, so you would raise it $25 more for a total of $31. Unless you have a LOT of chips in front of you, pushing all in isn't a bad idea. Assuming you did just call on the turn and you were still in the pot and the river was a blank again, and both players check, now is the time to extract some more money. If either player had a hand that beats you, they would have wanted to get some more out of it, and since they have both checked, you should put in a healthy bet, as much as you think they will call. You must be confident that your hand is best here from the way your opponents played, and you need to be aggressive when you have that confidence. Good luck to you Pamela, keep posting hands and keep learning. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, shorn, 19. Sep 2003 12:29 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Great reply post Lee. I was so taken aback by the fold that I had trouble concentrating in my reply (sorry Pamela). The best advice you give is to keep posting and learning. Steve | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, Pamela, 19. Sep 2003 18:47 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Thank you for the step by step analysis. Great advice ! | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, shorn, 19. Sep 2003 11:30 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Pamela- Quite the opposite of what you were doing...you should have raised either the flop, but definitely the turn! I would have raised the pot on both streets if given the chance. For one, you need to protect your hand from the flush draw on the flop and now way you should fold the turn. The only hand that can beat you is KK and since no one raised pre-flop, you can be reasonably certain no one holds it. Yea, I would consider this very weak play. You need to play tightly, but be AGGRESSIVE when you are in a pot with the goods. This hand you had them. Steve | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, Mark, 19. Sep 2003 11:35 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| HI Pamela > I'm less a year Hold'em player. .Advice on this play please. > $25 NL Ring > I'm dealt [ 9h, 9c ] > Preflop > 1.Z folds > 2.SI folds > 3.AY calls . 50 > 4..DV folds > 5. J calls > 6.JW folds > 7. I call...(maybe I should of raised here.) I don't like to raise before the > flop. I definately would have made a raise. about 3x the pot. By raising you take control of the hand, but since you already have position not raising is not a huge mistake. > 8. SB calls > 9. BB checks > > Flop [ Js, Kd, 9d ] > SB Bets $2. > BB calls > AY folds > J calls > I call (maybe i should of raised here) Yep a raise was in order. You should have been happy to take down a $8 pot (it could have been more if you raised preflop). There is a two flush present as well as a str8 possibility and mulitple draws. All of the cards are in the play zone and are likely to have hit your opponents some how. So, by flat calling you are essentially allowing a free card. I would have reraised the current pot (approx $8) or more, depending on the opponents tendencies to call. Your is probably the best on the flop, but is vulnerable to many cards You must protect it. > > Turn [ 2s ] > SB bets $3 > BB raised $6 > J folds > I fold ( feeling sicks Why, did you figure you were beat? No one had shown any REAL strength to that point. And the bets are not large compared to the pot size. If you are behind in the hand ( to a str8) you almost have current pots odds to chase a boat, and most likely the implied odds are there. There is a chance you could get trapped for another bet or two, but there is also a good chance you have the best hand. > SB calls > River [ 5h ] > SB checks > BB checks and wins with a pair of k's with a 3 Kicker .. > I had to laugh at this point At myself ......Ok so Any advice? You played a strong hand weak, and then folded to someone elses show of strength. It sounds like you didn't like flopping a set. Why did you even bother to call the $2 flop bet if you were just going to fold. You need to make a play for that pot at sometime, and flop was when to do it. If you raised and got called or reraised then slowing down would be justified, but when blanks hit on the turn and river, you should probably still call down those bets. Mark | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, HoldemNewbie, 19. Sep 2003 11:46 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Dont take this the wrong way. Im just a newbie at holdem and I think you couldnt have played that hand any worse.!!! Do you have any idea about poker? Why the hell would you fold? You had them beat. Why play poker if you do not want to win money? Please take Eman's advice and read up on some literature and try learning the value of the hands. By the way, where do you plany. Id love to sit at your table sometime! :-) | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| this is not constructive, Mark, 19. Sep 2003 12:13 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| HoldemNewbie Everyone goes through a learning curve and makes mistakes. I post hands in which others think i play bad all the time, but no one has ever blasted me personally for it. Your comments do not add anything useful to this form and may discourage further discussions. Please try to be constructive, instead of critical. Mark > Dont take this the wrong way. Im just a newbie at holdem and I think you couldnt > have played that hand any worse.!!! Do you have any idea about poker? Why the hell > would you fold? You had them beat. Why play poker if you do not want to win money? > Please take Eman's advice and read up on some literature and try learning the value > of the hands. > > By the way, where do you plany. Id love to sit at your table sometime! > :-) | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: this is not constructive, Mike Caro, 20. Sep 2003 08:55 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Thanks, Mark. Sometimes newcomers to UPF don't understand how important it is that we maintain the friendly, family nature of discussions. It helps a lot when our regular posters gently explain our goals and our purpose. I appreciate it. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, FUTRPKRSTR, 20. Sep 2003 09:41 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| And I thought I was bad LOL! | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, 4 POKER, 20. Sep 2003 13:42 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 20. Sep 2003 09:41 FUTRPKRSTR wrote: > And I thought I was bad LOL! Hi, Right above your reply, is one by Mike Caro. I guess you didn't read that one first, before you posted this one......correct? 4 POKER | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, FUTRPKRSTR, 20. Sep 2003 13:53 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hey 4 Poker! Didnt mean anything by it just making a point to hold'em newbie about how I thought I was bad at leaving remarks like that. And no I didn't read Mike's post my bad. In the future I will steer clear of that. Peace, CT | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, 4 POKER, 20. Sep 2003 14:40 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 20. Sep 2003 13:53 FUTRPKRSTR wrote: > Hey 4 Poker! Didnt mean anything by it just making a point to hold'em newbie about how I thought I > was bad at leaving remarks like that. And no I didn't read Mike's post my bad. In the future I > will steer clear of that. > > Peace, > CT Hi Craig, Okay, I understand. 'But you may want to take a look at what Mike wrote anyway. It couldn't hurt:) Peace. 4 POKER | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, jaustin, 19. Sep 2003 12:00 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| > 7. I call...(maybe I should of raised here.) I don't like to raise before the The call is fine, if you raise you're likely to only get called by hands that either have you beat (over pairs) or coin flips (2 overcards). With a medium pair, I like seeing the flop cheaply. > Flop [ Js, Kd, 9d ] > SB Bets $2. > BB calls > AY folds > J calls > I call (maybe i should of raised here) Raise. Only three hands have you beat KK, JJ, and QT. KK would definitely have raised pre-flop, and JJ likely would have (would need to know table texture). QT is unlikely as it's a weak NL hand but is a possibility. You need to raise enough so that flush and straight draws do not have proper odds to call. You want to limit the pot to hands like Kx or two pair and then milk them if you can. If your bet wins the pot right here that is fine as well. > Turn [ 2s ] > SB bets $3 > BB raised $6 > J folds > I fold ( feeling sicks > SB calls > River [ 5h ] > SB checks > BB checks and wins with a pair of k's with a 3 Kicker .. > I had to laugh at this point At myself ......Ok so Any advice? The two is a great card for you as it doesn't make a flush or straight. Unless someone was slowplaying the flop (which is very unlikely as there are draws to beat whatever they hold) you definitely have the best hand. The pot is now and good size and you should try and win it right here. I'd push all-in (depending on stack sizes), again you don't want to give draws the pot odds to call. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, kennycatkiller, 19. Sep 2003 23:29 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| You are far too timid--in NL, you should have raised pre-flop (you can not afford to let those blinds see the flop for free or half-price). Then, when you flopped a set, you had a golden opportunity to either raise substantially right then, or, alternatively (and probably better), raise all-in on the turn. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, beigs, 20. Sep 2003 10:09 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| So far, nobody has mentioned that two of Pamela's opponents were on the blinds. Wouldn't this change the way one would play? Firstly, a raise would either win you the pot right there or at least get you heads up. After seeing the flop, i would really want it heads up becuase Q-T is not so unlikely considering the blinds are still in the hand. I may be wrong, but Q-T is something the small blind would call half a bet and see the flop. Even so, after the flop you should play it strongly and follow everyone else's advice. beigs | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, 4 POKER, 20. Sep 2003 16:44 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 19. Sep 2003 11:14 Pamela wrote: > I'm less a year Hold'em player. .Advice on this play please. > $25 NL Ring > I'm dealt [ 9h, 9c ] > Preflop > 1.Z folds > 2.SI folds > 3.AY calls . 50 > 4..DV folds > 5. J calls > 6.JW folds > 7. I call...(maybe I should of raised here.) I don't like to raise before the > flop. > 8. SB calls > 9. BB checks > > Flop [ Js, Kd, 9d ] > SB Bets $2. > BB calls > AY folds > J calls > I call (maybe i should of raised here) > > Turn [ 2s ] > SB bets $3 > BB raised $6 > J folds > I fold ( feeling sicks > SB calls > River [ 5h ] > SB checks > BB checks and wins with a pair of k's with a 3 Kicker .. > I had to laugh at this point At myself ......Ok so Any advice? Hey Pamela, First....."Welcome to the UPF". I do have some advice; but not advice that really pertains to this particular hand, and how you played it. And rather then telling you how I would have played it, I'd like to ask you..... why don't you ever like to raise before the flop? There are some other questions as well; like, what caused you to get that sick feeling when the turn card came up? You don't need to tell me.....just ask yourself those questions, and take the time to really think about it, too. It could help for you to make clearer decisions, and ones' that may be the more optimal choices for you, throughtout the course of your game, and each time you chose to enter a pot, and in turn.....your choices will be made with confidence, as well. It's a great combination. There's some good reading material that will help you to understand the game a little bit better. And of course the more experience you get, the better your own game is going to be, too! 'As long as you can apply all that you have learned. But having confidence in yourself, and feeling comfortable in the 'game', will make it that much easier for you as well. It's a "must-have" factor whether you're playing poker, or anything else that you're trying to succeed in. And it sounds to me that you knew what to do on the turn, but for some reason....you didn't follow through with your instincts, and your 'own' good judgement kinda took a back seat due to maybe feeling a little uncomfortable still with the game. Perhaps? ( I'm just throwing some things your way because I think it can help you in the future). Keep asking questions, and relax.....poker is a never-ending learning experience. Glad to have you aboard Pamela. 4P- Poker is war.....take NO prisoners. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Weak Play?, Pamela, 20. Sep 2003 19:30 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I wanted to post the 999 fold because I know I have flaws in my play . The"sick feeling" was because I knew I laid down a winning hand. I would not have laid down four 9's ha! My stats have been 100% showdown . Because I only go to the river if I know I have the best hand possible,although I did get beat by a straight flush once. This kind of play has made my percentage wins low and does nothing much for my bankroll, breaking even mostly . The no raise before preflop will not be one of my flaws any longer. After reading Lee's detailed post as to why I should raise preflop I went into .50 -1.00 Limit Hold'em I raised my AA. Ak. KK . QQ. JJ preflop Although the QQ I lost,But the next time they came around I Played them the same way and I won! My showdown stats was 80% and my win percentage was way up. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Attn Pamela: Get Some Books!, Harold Pierce, Jr., 21. Sep 2003 22:30 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| You should definitely get several books on Hold'em and study the math and stat tables. You had 99 preflop, and the odds against any other player having a better hand are ca 4 to 1. On the flop you made trip nines and the chance of making a full house with two cards to come is 28 % and about 22 % with 1 card to come. Thus you were in the driver's seat, and you should bet out to thin the field and to make any opponent pay if they try to out draw you. However, watch out for flush draws. If you flop a 4 flush, you have a 35% chance of making a flush by the river. MouseEars | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|