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Server Time: 8/30/2008 2:43:51 AM PACIFIC |
 Two common errors made by middle limit players, grant pittman, 19. Sep 2003 09:05 | ||
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| I have spent a lot of hours playing poker in the middle limits (10-20 to 30-60) both in live games and online. I see players constantly struggling to win and they have reasonable hand reading skills and play at an acceptable level of aggression compared to their opponents. In fact, if you asked some of their opponents they would say that these players are "tough" and "tricky" and that they win. All these descriptors may be true but I often see these same players committing two errors consistently in their play that cost them A LOT of money. Error 1) Cold calling raises from solid early position players preflop. This error can seem subtle to a lot of players but it's a killer on the bankroll. At a full table you need to determine who is playing solid or even "tight" and adjust accordingly. When a tight player opens the pot for a raise in early position hands like KJ and A10 belong in the muck. It's that simple. You are behind(usually WAY behind) and will not turn a profit playing this type of hand. Error 2) Taking cards off on the flop( looking at the turn card when you have missed your flop). This error is so prevalent it's what I believe is the biggest source of profit for a winning player in a poker game. I see lots of mediocre players do this and every big losing player does this as a matter or routine. If the pot has been raised( especially early) and called by several players I agree it is tempting to call the flop even when you miss. Overall this is a big losing play since you are behind(often times drawing close to dead) and the flop has helped your opponents. Don't continue helping them by constantly chasing when you miss. If they are any good, they will punish your dearly for calling. Just a thought. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Two common errors made by middle limit players, kennycatkiller, 19. Sep 2003 09:22 | ||
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| Amen! Especially your first point about cold-calling a raise by a tightish, solid player up front,when you hold AT or some such medium-strength hand. After all, unless you are in the blind, you have ZERO investment in any hand. Why put money into a pot where you are the underdog> | ||
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| Re: Two common errors made by middle limit players, Bungus, 19. Sep 2003 10:23 | ||
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| KJoff is a bad hand to call in early position? is that a fact? (how about at loose tables?) | ||
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| Re: Two common errors made by middle limit players, shorn, 19. Sep 2003 11:02 | ||
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| It is a bad hand to call a RAISE with from an early position player that you know to be tight. In fact, in the middle limits S&M say the game must be "perfect" to call with KJo. In general, it is a hand that is asking to be dominated by AJ and KQ/AQ, so if you are playing with solid players, it is not a good hand to play unless you are in a late or steal position. | ||
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| Re: Two common errors made by middle limit players, mroban, 19. Sep 2003 12:08 | ||
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| I think KJos is even a bad hand to call with a bunch of early limpers, especially if the limpers are solid players. What could they be limping with that could make KJos a favorite? Perhaps small pairs. But if there are more than 2 limpers, the hand becomes a dog. Ax or KQ is quite possible and even probable. And making two pair creates the likelihood of a broadway draw for someone. Anyway, some may disagree but I have routinely been mucking that hand in late position with a bunch of limpers ahead of me. I have been playing KJos only if passed to me in middle position or late position and playing it for a raise, hoping to steal the blinds or win on the flop. Is this correct? | ||
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| Re: Two common errors made by middle limit players, shorn, 19. Sep 2003 12:19 | ||
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| I hear what you are saying. However, I think calling in LP with this hand with a bunch of limpers isn't a bad play. You just need to make sure that you can get away from it if you flop just a bit because you don't have top kicker ever. Basically, what I am looking to do is flop open-end str8 draw, 2 pair, or trips. The combined likelihood of hitting any one of these generally makes it correct to call in LP with 3 or 4 limpers. Now, if the game is uber-tight and folks are routinely limping with AK and AQ or big pairs, then that is a different story. But, rarely will you find a game lower than 10/20 where this occurs. | ||
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| Re: Two common errors made by middle limit players, mroban, 19. Sep 2003 12:43 | ||
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| I agree with that. Its definitely a hand to get away from with any action on the flop without hitting any of the criteria you describe. As such, it is worth a play if you know you are going to muck it on the flop. | ||
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| Re: Two common errors made by middle limit players, Jav, 19. Sep 2003 11:09 | ||
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| I believe he was saying that it's bad to call a raise from a solid early position player if you are holding K,J. Though I think in tough games I would muck K,J from early position. In a passive game I would probably play it though. | ||
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| Re: Two common errors made by middle limit players, Mark, 19. Sep 2003 11:43 | ||
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| I am really starting to hate Jacks. Any jack hand is weak as it can easily be dominated. I've noticed that AJ, JJ and especially KJ are very susceptable hands against strong competition. I used to think they were strong (as many probably do), but now commonly muck them to solid early position raisers. I've been busted out on a lot of tournaments with these hands and am finally starting to learn. Top pair hands with these starters do not stand up well. And if you make a 2 pair hand, it usually also hits some one else, so you will have opponents drawing against you till the river. That creates big swings and is not always for the better. Mark | ||
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| Re: Two common errors made by middle limit players, noiseboy, 19. Sep 2003 11:27 | ||
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| I was playing 10-20 at UB last night, and definitely noticed what you are talking about. I was playing pretty tight, and couldn't really believe how many calls I was getting on my big pairs and big A's. Anyway, I think that a lot of players are a bit paranoid about getting bluffed out. When you have the best hand, and bet, rather than fold, they either call you down or sometimes they even raise you, which you gotta love. I think this sticking around too long error also stems from irrational fear of the bluff. Anyway, nice post. | ||
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| Re: Two common errors made by middle limit players, Andrew Wells, 20. Sep 2003 20:47 | ||
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| I certainly concur with those two observations. The third most common mistake I see is over use of the semibluff raise or semibluff checkraise. | ||
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