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Server Time: 12/2/2008 7:24:43 AM PACIFIC |
 Ruling, Anyone?, Bart Mann, 18. Sep 2003 14:05 | ||
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| Good Afternoon, All: I see there is a new section here titled "Rules," so I thought I'd post a question that's been bugging me for the last month or so. I’ll take an Official Ruling, as well as any comments that may not necessarily match the official rulebook of Poker. THE SCENARIO . . . NLHE satellite tournament, second hour of play. Blinds are $200/$400, and I’m in middle position with about $2,000 in chips. I’m sitting in Seat #2, two to the left of the dealer. You’ll see why this is important in a minute . . . THE HAND . . . The first two cards come out, and a short stack in early position goes all in for $800. Next three fold. I peek at my cards—pocket Kings. Jackpot! I push my $2,000 into the middle and confidently declare “All in.” I get one other caller in late position. $4,800 in the pot and I can’t wait for the flop. But wait . . . I look down and my cards are GONE. As I sit there in utter disbelief the flop comes K-Q-4. Set of Kings for me, but where the hell are my cards? As the dealer is dropping the turn card (there is no betting because two of the three players are all-in) I announce that my cards are missing. THE AFTERMATH . . . The late position caller immediately exclaims to the table “I saw you throw your cards into the muck.” I notify the late position caller that what he just said was complete bull*#&$, and the dealer goes on with his business and finishes out the hand. Late position caller has pair of queens with an Ace kicker, early position raiser doesn’t even turn his cards over. Dealer begins pushing the entire pot over to the late position caller with me literally screaming at him. At this point I realize that he’s either ignoring me, or I’m yelling so loud that only dogs can hear me. One of the players not involved in the pot calls the floor manager over for a ruling. THE RULING . . . After the floor manager is up to speed, he states that I “must have mucked my cards by accident,” and declares the late position caller winner of the pot—and me out of the tournament. Just as I am about to drop dead of a brain hemorrhage, the player to my left announces that he saw the whole thing. While I was pushing my bet all in, the dealer reached to the rail and raked seat #1’s cards (who had folded), then raked mine as well. The player to my left also announced that this dealer (who was in his first week of work) had nearly done the same thing to him a few hands prior. The floor manager considers this new information, then declares the hand void and gives everyone their money back. Understanding that it is MY AND ONLY MY responsibility to protect my cards (so please don’t remind me again), was this handled correctly? I’m not about to complain—I figure getting my original bet back is more than fair given that I didn’t have a hand. I’m just curious if this whole thing shook out the way it was “supposed to.” Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, mkpoker, 18. Sep 2003 14:24 | ||
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| I think management did the right thing, placing the unwritten rules of reasonableness and fairplay above the letter of the law requiring that you are responsibile for protecting your hand. In this case (he wrote sounding like a lawyer), we have an array of evidence suggesting that your story was true. First and foremost is the testimony of another player, who had no stake in the outcome. Also, I think the manager should have sifted through the muck to verify that two kings had been taken in. Together, your statement, the statement of the uninvolved player, and the KK in the muck would make a pretty persuasive case that your story was accurate. The AQ player might squawk...but he should consider himself very lucky! Had the hand been played properly, he'd be out of the tourney. And as for you! There's really no way you could ask for the whole pot. Declaring a "dead hand" and getting your money back is about as good as could be expected. | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, 4 POKER, 18. Sep 2003 14:50 | ||
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| 'sure you had pocket kings....uh huh......rrrright. (just kidding:) | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, Bart Mann, 18. Sep 2003 15:41 | ||
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| I read a post a few days ago where someone said "Players usually don't learn the lesson about protecting their cards until their AA ends up in the muck." This makes me think that this situation only happens when people have big hands ;-) | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, Jav, 18. Sep 2003 16:21 | ||
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| Yep. I bet you're never caught without a chip on your cards from now on. You're lucky the ruling went in your favor. You also have to think about it from the "winner" or the hands perspective. If they took the pot away from me because another player didn't protect his cards well enough I would have been pretty mad. | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, Mark, 18. Sep 2003 17:11 | ||
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| You are very lucky it happened that way. If you weren't all-in, i don't think there is a chance in hell you would have got anything back, nor should you. But since you were all-in, the only fair way to handle the situation would have been to sift though the muck and have each player declare what his or her hand was to account for every card in the muck. Then if 2 kings were left, you could have your original bet back. Imagine if you were the AQ player. I would be screamming bloody murder if that happened to me and would take my play to another casino (whenever possible). We all know what the rules clearly state, and i don't think they should be broken for anyone, no matter who's fault. If the dealer could scoop your cards while collecting bets, you obviously had your cards too close to the pot or muck line and it was YOUR fault that it happened. When my cards are wedged in between the cusion and my stack, anyone who gets too close to them is going to get their hand cut off, especially a dealer. Be happy you were on the good end of the ruling, and remember Karma. When you happen to be the guy with the AQo who just doubles up with a losing hand, remember to smile when you give back the chips. Mark | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, Bart Mann, 18. Sep 2003 19:33 | ||
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| I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but as I stated in the original post I didn't expect to win the pot--nor was I upset with only getting my original bet back. I consider myself fortunate that it turned out the way it did. But in my own defense--keeping in mind that it's hard for me to admit this was 100% my fault--the dealer grabbed my cards while I was pushing all in. So by definition I had nothing--no chips and neither of my hands--to protect my cards with. And I refuse to start playing with one of those stupid glass frogs. And to one of the other points made, I don't feel the least bit guilty or sorry for the guy who had to give the chips back. Had my cards not been mucked, he would have been headed for his car in time to catch the "ER" rerun that was on TV that night. And I know I didn't mention this before, but when a card room crams 11 players and 1 dealer around a standard poker table so they can make an extra $10 entry fee, they should be prepared to face the consequences of players basically sitting on top of each other. | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, Mark, 19. Sep 2003 00:27 | ||
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| Hi Bart Sorry if i sounded harsh, but i do think you got VERY lucky. My comments below. > --keeping in mind that it's hard for me to admit this was 100% my fault--the > dealer grabbed my cards while I was pushing all in. I know you didn't intend to muck your hand, but the fact is you did. It does not matter how your hand got to the muck, it did. I've seen it a few times where there was no discussion or calling of the floor person. The player's hand was instantly ruled dead - end of discussion. >So by definition I had > nothing--no chips and neither of my hands--to protect my cards with. What i was trying to saying is "It is your responsibility, no matter how you do it" >And I refuse to > start playing with one of those stupid glass frogs. I wouldn't either > And to one of the other points made, I don't feel the least bit guilty or sorry for > the guy who had to give the chips back. Had my cards not been mucked, he would have > been headed for his car in time to catch the "ER" rerun that was on TV that night. Just keep it in mind when your on the opposite end some day. We've all seen "grown" men throw temper tantrums in card rooms, but the AQ player would have a legitimate beef. If the rules they posted up were followed correctly, he would have doubled up. But becasue they decided to break the rules in this circumstance, he got screwed. > And I know I didn't mention this before, but when a card room crams 11 players and 1 > dealer around a standard poker table so they can make an extra $10 entry fee, they > should be prepared to face the consequences of players basically sitting on top of > each other. They did not force you pay that entry fee, you choose of your own free will. You, not they, need to face the consequences. Don't get me wrong, if it happened to me, i might have thrown a Phil Helmuth. But if i was another opponent at the table i would be upset it ended the way it did. Facts speak at the table, not intentions. The facts are 1. you mucked your hand (i know *you* didn't do it but your hand was mucked and is therefore dead) 2. you didn't say anything untill after the flop was down. Sorry, but i think you should have been eliminated. The problem i have is that i don't know what your intentions were (though pretty obvious when all-in). What if you intentionally mucked because an over card hit, and then when you realized you actually won the hand started to put up a fuss. What should happen then? While i do think it would be unfair to you if they eliminated you (in this case) it was unfair to everyone else that they let you stay. There was a good cardplayer article a while back talking about rulings. The author told a story about a great floor person who everyone respected. During an argument, a dealer was explaining the situation to the floor person and said "but he meant to...".. The floor person immediately inturupted and said "Into the mind of another, we can not venture" and he was right. Though i don't think you were trying to cheat in any way, no one else can know your intentions, and that's why i think your actions should speak. Obviously i'm taking a hard line here, but i can't stand it when the rules are broken for some but not all. Mark | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, Bart Mann, 19. Sep 2003 06:25 | ||
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| Point taken. There have to be a few hard-liners out there, or the world would be in complete chaos. I still believe there were enough extenuating circumstances (new dealer, 1 witness, two kings in the muck) for the floor to make the decision he did. I think the reason I have no compassion for Mr. AQ is that he was the first one to scream "I saw him muck his cards," when the statement was patently false and he knew it. Stuff like that sets people off--me included. | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, LJH, 20. Sep 2003 12:55 | ||
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| BM, YOU ASKED A QUESTION AND YOU GOT ANSWERS, SO WHY DO YOU KEEP COMING BACK AND ANSWER THE ANSWEERERS. GUILT FEELINGS?? YOU SHOULD HAVED LOST AND BUT FOR THE SAKE A POOR MANAGEMENT YOU GOT YOUR MONEY BACK. QUIT BEING A BAD WINNER! LJH | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, shorn, 19. Sep 2003 06:45 | ||
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| I agree with you Mark. I think Bart should have been eliminated as well. Not only did the floor person go back on "a hand in the muck is dead", but how could they possibly know you were telling the truth about having the AQ hand beaten? If I was at the table, I would have strongly disagreed with allowing you to get your money back and continue (sorry). You may think the "glass frogs" and the like are dumb, but they do prevent this type of mistake from happening. | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, Bart Mann, 19. Sep 2003 09:33 | ||
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| I would like to extend my sincerest apologies to anyone who sells glass poker frogs for a living. My comment about them being "stupid" was completely out of line, and I realize now that I never should have made it. Couldn't resist, shorn. ;-) All in good fun. I know deep down you're right . . . | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, shorn, 19. Sep 2003 09:36 | ||
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| Good one! I myself use a card holder (a strange hand that looks like it is raking in a pot that I found in a curio shop in Kenya), but I thought the glass frog from that player on WPT (I think that is where this reference comes from) was ugly too. When VVP makes fun of something, you know it is bad! | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, LJH, 20. Sep 2003 12:51 | ||
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| DEAR BM, YOU SHOULD LOSE. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO KEEP YOUR CARDS COVERED SO THAT THIS CAN'T HAPPEN. PUT A COIN OR A CHIP OR A VOODOO DOLL. LJH | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, Bart Mann, 20. Sep 2003 19:58 | ||
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| Per my original post: "Understanding that it is MY AND ONLY MY responsibility to protect my cards (so please don’t remind me again) . . . " I posted this under "Rules" because I wanted to know if, per the rules, it was handled correctly. And as far as your previous comment about me posting responses, I did not realize I was not allowed to carry on conversations with others at this forum. My apologies for misunderstanding the etiquette here at UnitedPokerForm.com. | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, LJH, 21. Sep 2003 06:24 | ||
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| DEAR BM, YOU ASKED YOUR QUESTION AND GOT LOTS OF RESPONSE. THESE WERE THEIR OPINIONS. THEY WERE NOT ASKING YOU TO RESPOND TO THEIR OPINIONS. YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT, BUT IT SURE LOOKS LIKE YOU DO NOT LIKE WHAT TEY SAID WHEN YOU DID THIS. BY THE WAY THE CARDS WERE DEAD WHEN THEY HIT THE MUCK----S O EVEN IF YOU WERE ALLOWED TO FIND THEM THEY WERE NOT RECOVERABLE. YOU WERE LUCKY TEH MANAGE\MENT WAS NICE TO YOU. END OF SUBJECT. LJH | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, gary ford, 22. Sep 2003 00:12 | ||
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| LJH---YOUR CAPS STUCK AGAIN? | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, stdioh, 25. Sep 2003 10:17 | ||
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| I generally go by the rule that if you had a chip on the cards and the dealer still took them away then you can kick his arse in the parkinglot after he gets off work. If you didn't then he can grab your cards, even if it means reaching across the table when you aren't looking. And how about this one. I once had a dealer who was chatting friendilly with his buddy playing at the same table - not a problem there except when the player went to muck against my bluff and the dealer said, "You can't fold that - there's too much money in the pot," and the guy called. | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, 4 POKER, 25. Sep 2003 10:21 | ||
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| No way. The dealer actually said that? That is awful. And whether you won the pot or not is irrelevant. That dealer would be on my list as a "no-tip for you"....ever again. | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, stdioh, 25. Sep 2003 14:43 | ||
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| I was going to make a gigantic fuss ... but it was at the ex (Canadian National Exhibition) and the dealers had basically never dealt before. They were so disorganized that if I had caused a fuss they would have done nothing and eventually ejected me...I knew I wouldn't get a nickel. And I took enough out of there counting the blackjack tables that I didn't want to be known as "that guy" and have people watching me closely. | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, 4 POKER, 25. Sep 2003 14:54 | ||
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| I hear ya. I was at The EX myself about two years ago. I thought it was just waaay too maniacal for me. I mean, *everyone* was calling with any two cards for any amount of bets pre-flop.....it was insane! But I did enjoy the french fries outside! They were the best damn fries I ever had,lol. My buddy lives in Toronto so that was pretty cool too. He took us to alot of neat places. Anyway........Even if this incident happened at your local place, you wouldn't necessarily have to make a big fuss if you chose not to; you could just keep a mental track of that dealer and not tip him/her anymore. Because if you had won the pot, you may have just let it slide; but it wouldn't have mattered if that was the case though. A dealer should not be rewarded when they're that unprofessional. But I understand why you chose to keep quiet here. He didn't even realize what he was doing. I've seen it all myself, trust me. | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, stdioh, 26. Sep 2003 15:04 | ||
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| The problem is that they share the tips, so by not tipping him, I'm really not doing anything except looking like a dick who doesn't tip. | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, 4 POKER, 26. Sep 2003 15:54 | ||
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| Ouch. Okay, well I guess it's a different ball game then. It used to be the same way in AC except the poker dealers would split their tips throughout the whole casino! Imagine then how much your $1 tip really is. It's about a half a penny if that! But now they keep their own tips and it means more now when someone throws them a red bird, or even just the usual buck. But you still get the ones who like to say, "wow, that was a nice pot"!, just to make sure you realize that your tip better be a good one as well. And when they say crap like that....I'll take them aside when their 1/2 hour is up, (because I know them all so well), and I'll tell them that they shouldn't be saying things like that because there will always be someone who was on the losing end of that "really nice pot". and imo, poker dealers should keep their own tips because some of them are really great dealers while you'll find others who are just lame, and it's not fair. Dave | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, Bart Mann, 25. Sep 2003 12:45 | ||
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| What do you guys think about dealers being blatantly friendly with their buddies at the table? For some reason, it always makes me uncomfortable. At the card room I frequent, dealers are allowed to play when they’re off-duty, so there’s a lot of that buddy-buddy crap going on. Maybe I’m being paranoid, but if the list to get on a table wasn’t two hours long I’d probably get up and move. | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, 4 POKER, 25. Sep 2003 12:57 | ||
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| Hey Bart, Well I don't think you need to be paranoid about it, but, it isn't all that professional either imo. It kind of announces to the table that you're a regular player there, and some players don't like to be singled out as such. And yes, it does make the other players uncomfortable sometimes. It doesn't to me because I am a regular, but I can see how it can look from somebody elses perspective, though. It also leaves for more mistakes to be made because the dealer may not be paying attention if he's constantly buddy-buddying with his friends. A good dealer will say hello to his friend or just a recognition with a smile perhaps, and then move on about his business while displaying no partiality in his comments whatsoever. That dealer that made that comment to his friend while stdioh was in the hand, should have been written up, and like I said, if that were me that it happened to, I would never tip that dealer again.......NEVER. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, stdioh, 25. Sep 2003 14:45 | ||
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| I don't like it at all. I don't think that dealers should be allowed to play in their home cardrooms at all. I think that it's good to have dealers who are pleasant and chat with regulars ... it makes the game less serious and keeps recreational players coming back. But when the dealer starts telling his buddy how to play in the middle of a hand, that is certainly not one player to a hand ... in that respect the dealer should be an impartial automaton. | ||
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| Re: Ruling, Anyone?, Mark, 25. Sep 2003 14:49 | ||
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| I can't believe a dealer would do that. I would flat out tell him he was an ass and would immediately go to the management. That deserves to have a big deal made out of it, because it is collusion. what if the dealer saw a tell or read the hand different. He probably knew Stdioh was bluffing and didn't want his buddy to lose on the hand. That's collusion. I've talked to card room management for much less than that. I'm not rude or angry when i talk to them, but i politely inform them that their dealers are telling players how to play (usually happens while shuffling). I think its wrong, never tip dealers who do it, and leave if it continues (i make it a point to tell management why i'm leaving). The way I see it is, I have to play against two people playing one hand, the opponent and the dealer. The last time it happened, a calling station kept bluffing the river. After the dealer said something derogitory about him, he tightened up and played well (for 1/2 hour). I said something to management and when the dealer came back, he was quiet. Mark | ||
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