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Server Time: 12/2/2008 5:50:19 AM PACIFIC |
 Flopping Trips in NL, mroban, 18. Sep 2003 13:39 | ||
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| Here is a hand that came up recently that busted me out of a NL tournament. Obviously there are other factors that come into question that will determine the answer, but here is the basic scenario: Medium/low stack, middle of a multi table tourney not in danger of being blinded out though, not desperate but could use a nice win. Dealt 77 in EP. Decide to limp in and see if I hit a set. Flop comes 567rainbow. There were 4 callers including the blinds. I am in early position. I bet into the flop, 2 folded, the SB reraised allin and the BB folded. Damn. Could this guy really have 89 or 48? I called and he flips up 4h8h. The board doesn't pair up for me and no Aruba for me, I am gone. 1. Should I have raised this hand from EP rather than limped? I don't think so. I would have thrown it away if it was raised significantly. 2. With a coordinated board like this, should I have checked and just waited to see the board reaction? A good player would probably check the hand and try and induce a bet on the turn, so I am not sure that would have helped me. 3. Of course, I could have folded the allin reraise figuring the nuts. If he had A6 or A7 would he have reraised allin at that point in the tourney? in retrospect, probably not. So the reraise should have let me know he had the nuts. If he had merely called the raise, I would have shut it down on the turn and folded to a bet on the turn or river (I think). So why call the allin here? My problem with checking here is that I would be giving someone a free card to beat me. So the only play that makes sense is to raise and fold to a reraise. But I think I have to try and win that pot. The guy made a lucky flop and I paid for it big time, but more often than not, I would still have the best hand on the flop. Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Flopping Trips in NL, shorn, 18. Sep 2003 13:54 | ||
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| This one is a bitch, no doubt. I am not sure I would have limped in EP with this pair. I think the better play is to raise 3x or so, or fold. Reason being, if you raise and are re-raised, it is an easy hand to throw away without too much invested. He definitely (I think) would have folded his 84s to a raise which would have saved you the pot. In LP, with a ot of limpers, many more hands become playable in NL for this reason alone: if you flop and hit, you can bust someone as happened here. As for the flop play, laying down top set is really really hard. I would have to have a stone cold read on my opponent to do that. Hell, he could be going all-in with 99 or TT. I think you have to call there and hope he doesn't show you the str8. | ||
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| Re: Flopping Trips in NL, Ron, 18. Sep 2003 14:06 | ||
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| I've played NL tournaments & live. Everyone plays differently, but the ONE piece of advice I can give you is if players are limping in you NEVER put in all of your chips UNLESS you have the absolute nuts. Just like in your example, you NEVER know what someone is playing for the minimum bet (or checked into the flop as the BB was, SB almost checked into it). GL | ||
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| Re: Flopping Trips in NL, EC, 18. Sep 2003 14:13 | ||
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| I agree with Shorn. Think of this rule of thumb- in a NL tournament, any hand that is playable is a hand worth raising with if you're the first one in the pot. People will almost always lay down the junk and marginal hands against a raise, and as you found out it's the junk hands that often make those miracle flops. After the flop, yeah, you were screwed. He could have any number of hands besides the miracle straight that he could go all in with. I also wouldn't have read him for a straight, with one person to act behind him (the BB) a slow play might have been more appropriate to get a few more bucks in the pot. I would have read him for a strong hand that needed protection, maybe an overpair, 87, or a set of his own. Eli on 18. Sep 2003 13:39 mroban wrote: > Here is a hand that came up recently that busted me out of a NL tournament. > Obviously there are other factors that come into question that will determine > the answer, but here is the basic scenario: > > Medium/low stack, middle of a multi table tourney not in danger of being > blinded out though, not desperate but could use a nice win. Dealt 77 in EP. > Decide to limp in and see if I hit a set. > > Flop comes 567rainbow. There were 4 callers including the blinds. I am in > early position. I bet into the flop, 2 folded, the SB reraised allin and the BB > folded. > > Damn. Could this guy really have 89 or 48? I called and he flips up 4h8h. > The board doesn't pair up for me and no Aruba for me, I am gone. > > 1. Should I have raised this hand from EP rather than limped? I don't think > so. I would have thrown it away if it was raised significantly. > > 2. With a coordinated board like this, should I have checked and just waited > to see the board reaction? A good player would probably check the hand and try > and induce a bet on the turn, so I am not sure that would have helped me. > > 3. Of course, I could have folded the allin reraise figuring the nuts. If he > had A6 or A7 would he have reraised allin at that point in the tourney? in > retrospect, probably not. So the reraise should have let me know he had the > nuts. > > If he had merely called the raise, I would have shut it down on the turn and > folded to a bet on the turn or river (I think). So why call the allin here? > > My problem with checking here is that I would be giving someone a free card to > beat me. So the only play that makes sense is to raise and fold to a reraise. > But I think I have to try and win that pot. > > The guy made a lucky flop and I paid for it big time, but more often than not, > I would still have the best hand on the flop. > > Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Flopping Trips in NL, mroban, 18. Sep 2003 14:35 | ||
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| Great point guys, I like Ron's rule of thumb too (especially when limping in from an early position because by doing so it gave odds to the late limpers who can now play anything). Best thing to do here is probably throw the hand away - 77 is too vulnerable to raise 3x blinds from UTG (I think). But I agree if played, that is a better play (and certainly would have won this pot - no way this guy calls with 48 suited or not). And I agree that the guy didn't play the hand well (although it worked out great for him). He could have smoothcalled and possibly gotten the BB to call as well and get both of us allin on the turn (although I have learned to shut down when called in these situations for that exact reason). | ||
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