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Server Time: 12/2/2008 7:08:24 AM PACIFIC |
 Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), Machinegun68, 18. Sep 2003 01:44 | ||
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| A situation arose about an hour ago in the middle of a 3-handed $.50/$1 No Limit HE game. I would like to know everybody's opinions on what should have happened. I am playing NL with two buddies whose ganmes I know fairly well. To my left is a player I will call the Maniac. $125 total is what we are playing for. I have around $40 on the button. Maniac has about $70 in chips. The other player is short-stacked. I get: Ts 8c on the button. Maniac raises the small blind to $4. He has done this all night (raise small amounts ~4BB pre-flop to drive out the other player who is tight and short-stacked). I call the $4. Flop comes: 4s 7s 8s. I have top pair but the board is all spades. Maniac bets $5. I interpret this as a steal, or possible flush draw, since the board is ragged, and the Maniac probably would have raised more with something like AKs. I put him on two overcards if not a strong flush draw. I do not think he has a made flush. Turn comes: 5s. I have a flush but I am deathly afraid he does too. Maniac bets $10. For some reason I call with a mediocre flush. Why is not really important- looking back it was probably dumb. River comes Ad, basically a blank. If the maniac didn't have a flush, he may now have a hand like A4o and come out betting. I have not shown any strength here, remember, smooth calling all the maniac's bets. Here's the real problem. I am down to $15 on the river. The vast majority of my chips are in the pot. He bets $15 in an attempt to get me all-in. I thought long and hard about calling the $10 bet on the turn, and I think even longer and harder about this call. Could my 10-high flush be good? I think for a good 5 minutes. Is maniac bluffing or semi-bluffing? Does he hold a high flush? Tight player to my right is getting annoyed. He says, call or fold. This is where things get hairy. This player is still in the game (barely) but not in the pot. He is one of my good friends. The maniac we fight with a lot but tolerate. I would not consider him a close friend. I show my cards to my friend (tight player not in the pot). I ask him: "Would you call him with these cards?" I acknowledge that this was a huge mistake. Is is illegal or unethical, however? My friend made the point that he has seen Scotty Nguyen show his hole cards to other players who are not in the pot. Maniac objects LOUDLY to my showing hole cards. I try to placate him by saying, "Man, I shouldn't have asked him that. Don't say anything (to my friend). I am not listening." I go back to thinking. My friend has seen my hole cards but has done absolutely nothing. I decide firmly to call all-in. Before I can call, though, my friend says "S--t, man, I'd call him with those cards any day. I'd put all the money in my pocket on the table too." Maniac is really livid now. I say "call" loudly and move all-in. He shows me 64o for the gutshot straight. I show him my T-high flush. He is going ape demanding the pot. He claims he should take down the whole pot because I was "going to fold" and my friend "talked me into it." Word is bond, even though I took about 10 minutes to do it, I was 100% going to call his bet before my friend said anything. What should the ruling be here? Was asking for advice (or showing hold cards or both) unethical or illegal? I know what I did was stupid, but does Maniac really have any claims to the pot? My opinion: Cards Speak, I win, I take down the huge pot, he loses. His opinion: Asking and getting advice from anyone is illegal. Regardless of the cards he should get the pot for my transgression. I almost got into a fight with this guy earlier in the night, so I didn't want anything to go down over a few dollars. I said, "I'm sorry. I shouldn't have done that. At this point I think splitting the pot and continuing play is the fairest thing," Maniac very reluctantly agreed- we split the huge pot ($70-75, representing basically the whole game if I had taken it down). Now, of course, I think I shouldn't have done that and demanded the pot even if it did come to blows? Was I wrong? What would you guys have done? What is the ruling? Sorry for the length of the post, but I'm pretty worked up about all this right now (4:37 AM) and wanted the opinions of all you good folks. Thanks! | ||
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| Re: Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), Risky Business, 18. Sep 2003 06:51 | ||
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| "Word is bond, even though I took about 10 minutes to do it, I was 100% going to call his bet before my friend said anything." Don't B.S. us at UPF, this "100%" business is crap. If you were REALLY going to do it, you would have done it already. If you don't consider these folks your friends, and you can't get by uncomfortable rules discussion easily (without coming to blows!!), then I think you should treat it like a B&M. Sooooo, what's the rule in a B&M? If it's etched in stone what the ruling is, then I think the discussion is over. If each player has a story starting with "well I know a place where......" then I think you need to slow down your game and state the rules up front more clearly. Finally, I think you came up with the wrong solution, though admirable to some. Nobody ever determined the rules for showing people hands that aren't in the pot, so I think it was your pot. What would the guy have said about soliciting advice if he won? Just because you won, doesn't make you wrong. on 18. Sep 2003 01:44 Machinegun68 wrote: > A situation arose about an hour ago in the middle of a 3-handed $.50/$1 No Limit > HE game. I would like to know everybody's opinions on what should have happened. > I am playing NL with two buddies whose ganmes I know fairly well. To my left is > a player I will call the Maniac. $125 total is what we are playing for. I have > around $40 on the button. Maniac has about $70 in chips. The other player is > short-stacked. > I get: Ts 8c on the button. Maniac raises the small blind to $4. He has done > this all night (raise small amounts ~4BB pre-flop to drive out the other player > who is tight and short-stacked). I call the $4. > Flop comes: 4s 7s 8s. I have top pair but the board is all spades. Maniac bets > $5. I interpret this as a steal, or possible flush draw, since the board is > ragged, and the Maniac probably would have raised more with something like AKs. > I put him on two overcards if not a strong flush draw. I do not think he has a > made flush. > Turn comes: 5s. I have a flush but I am deathly afraid he does too. Maniac > bets $10. For some reason I call with a mediocre flush. Why is not really > important- looking back it was probably dumb. River comes Ad, basically a blank. > If the maniac didn't have a flush, he may now have a hand like A4o and come out > betting. I have not shown any strength here, remember, smooth calling all the > maniac's bets. > > Here's the real problem. I am down to $15 on the river. The vast majority of my > chips are in the pot. He bets $15 in an attempt to get me all-in. > I thought long and hard about calling the $10 bet on the turn, and I think even > longer and harder about this call. Could my 10-high flush be good? I think for a > good 5 minutes. Is maniac bluffing or semi-bluffing? Does he hold a high > flush? > > Tight player to my right is getting annoyed. He says, call or fold. This is > where things get hairy. This player is still in the game (barely) but not in the > pot. He is one of my good friends. The maniac we fight with a lot but tolerate. > I would not consider him a close friend. I show my cards to my friend (tight > player not in the pot). I ask him: "Would you call him with these cards?" > > I acknowledge that this was a huge mistake. Is is illegal or unethical, > however? My friend made the point that he has seen Scotty Nguyen show his hole > cards to other players who are not in the pot. > > Maniac objects LOUDLY to my showing hole cards. I try to placate him by saying, > "Man, I shouldn't have asked him that. Don't say anything (to my friend). I am > not listening." > > I go back to thinking. My friend has seen my hole cards but has done absolutely > nothing. I decide firmly to call all-in. Before I can call, though, my friend > says "S--t, man, I'd call him with those cards any day. I'd put all the money in > my pocket on the table too." > > Maniac is really livid now. I say "call" loudly and move all-in. He shows me > 64o for the gutshot straight. I show him my T-high flush. He is going ape > demanding the pot. He claims he should take down the whole pot because I was > "going to fold" and my friend "talked me into it." > > Word is bond, even though I took about 10 minutes to do it, I was 100% going to > call his bet before my friend said anything. What should the ruling be here? Was > asking for advice (or showing hold cards or both) unethical or illegal? I know > what I did was stupid, but does Maniac really have any claims to the pot? > > My opinion: Cards Speak, I win, I take down the huge pot, he loses. > > His opinion: Asking and getting advice from anyone is illegal. Regardless of > the cards he should get the pot for my transgression. > > I almost got into a fight with this guy earlier in the night, so I didn't want > anything to go down over a few dollars. I said, "I'm sorry. I shouldn't have > done that. At this point I think splitting the pot and continuing play is the > fairest thing," Maniac very reluctantly agreed- we split the huge pot ($70-75, > representing basically the whole game if I had taken it down). > > Now, of course, I think I shouldn't have done that and demanded the pot even if > it did come to blows? Was I wrong? What would you guys have done? What is the > ruling? > > Sorry for the length of the post, but I'm pretty worked up about all this right > now (4:37 AM) and wanted the opinions of all you good folks. Thanks! > | ||
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| Re: Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), Jordan, 18. Sep 2003 09:01 | ||
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| I think the whole pot should be yours. If you are playing a home game and you haven't clearly set rules for this type of situation the cards speak. It might not have been the most 'good-mannered' play to show your cards and solicit advice but I don't think that invalidates your claim to the pot. It would be different if you were in a casino and there were specific rules for this. I wouldn't say this situation was really so much 'unethical'. It just wans't a smart play considering the type of individual this maniac was. I would have probably ended up doing the same thing not wanting to get in a fight with the guy. I can't stand people who get so freaking uptight about poker, it's just a game. | ||
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| Re: Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), 4 POKER, 18. Sep 2003 10:12 | ||
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| Let me tell you what I would do if I were in your friends situation. If you asked me a question about the hand while it was still in progress; whether your question was serious or just in jest; I wouldn't have answered you at all. Friend or no friend. So even though you 'may' not have needed his advice on this one, it doesn't matter because you never know what somebody else is going to say in reply, and you just don't know how your opponent is going to feel about such a thing. I wouldn't like it either if someone was conversing with another player while he was in the hand with me. It's just bad poker, it really is; and it's not a team sport, even though you guys were just playing in a home game. It doesn't matter; it can cause for really bad feelings, while also putting doubt in the players minds if you guys are playing honest poker or not. Look at it from the perspective of "The Maniac". You two guys are good buddies, but he is someone who you 'tolerate', but you're not really good friends with him. That makes it look even worse; not to mention, why would you want to even put yourself in a spot that could cause the maniac to quit your game? Forget about ethics if you want to......think about the big picture and what that entails as well. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), shorn, 18. Sep 2003 10:27 | ||
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| Because the rules were not established, it is definitely your pot. However, what you and your friend did was unfair as the old rule is one player to a hand. So, I think you made a logical decision to split the pot to keep the peace. I think that I (and others who have written) would suggest that this all can be avoided in the future by laying the ground rules beforehand. | ||
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| Re: Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), Machinegun68, 18. Sep 2003 12:13 | ||
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| Thanks for the replies. I'm glad you feel the same way I do- stupid thing to do, but I should have taken the pot anyway. Risky Business, I'm not trying to B.S. anybody. I had made up my mind to call before my friend said anything. I realize this doesn't matter at all though. | ||
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| Re: Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), Risky Business, 18. Sep 2003 13:09 | ||
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| yeah, i know. just razzin ya. your idle buddy probably would have loved to be in your shoes, considering he was sitting there as a spectactor. on 18. Sep 2003 12:13 Machinegun68 wrote: > Thanks for the replies. I'm glad you feel the same way I do- stupid thing to do, but I should have taken the pot anyway. > > Risky Business, I'm not trying to B.S. anybody. I had made up my mind to call before my friend said anything. I realize this doesn't matter at all though. | ||
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| Re: Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), meyekal, 18. Sep 2003 12:19 | ||
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| IMO, I think the most you should have gotten was half the pot. Truthfully, if I was a hudge and had to make a decision that could not be a split, I would have given the pot to the other player. Whatever your intentions were, no one else can read your mind. You asked and recieved advice from someone who had seen cards in the game(his two cards). What should be the ruling if you were playing 7 card stud and the friend who gave you advice had seen 6 of his own cards? Nothing to get in a fight over though. | ||
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| Re: Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), Machinegun68, 18. Sep 2003 12:39 | ||
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| Actually, this situation is even more muddy because showing cards and soliciting advice (from other players or people not in the hand) has always occurred with some regularity in our game. For example, one of my friends will often show his girlfriend (who is only sometimes in the game) his hold cards as she walks by. "The Maniac" as I call him is only in our game about 1/5 of the time however. Others have shown their cards many times and nothing had happened. I think it was the facts that we had fought really all night and the Maniac's excessively angry and violent temperament that made this an issue. (This does not excuse my behavior. I will never show cards to anybody ever again anywhere under any conditions- don't worry :-) I have learned my lesson. The rule was never "clearly established" but I certainly was not doing anything too crazily out of line for our home game. Meyekal, you make a good point. I never thought about the fact that my friend had already seen and folded 2 cards. This does make my stupid move (of showing cards) even dumber. I simply shouldn't have done this, especially against this particular opponent. 4POKER, you are 100% correct as usual. I should have been more concerned with welcoming this maniac into our game and I shouldn't have done ANYTHING to make him consider leaving. This is part of the reason that I split the pot with him, for no "hard feelings." | ||
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| Re: Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), Brent, 18. Sep 2003 13:08 | ||
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| While everyone addressed the ethical question, another question is Do you want him to continue playing in your games? From the perspective that he isn't a very good player and brings money to the table and brings action, I would say you want him to stay. There for splitting the pot and setting a rule then and there would be the best call. You don't lose any money on the hand and you gain his money in future games. But that's just another way to look at it. | ||
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| Re: Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), Bungus, 19. Sep 2003 23:12 | ||
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| If I were in your boots I'd skin that smokewagon and send that boy packing | ||
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| Re: Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), LJH, 21. Sep 2003 06:29 | ||
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| MACHINE GUN, YOU SHOULD LOSE. THE RULE IS ONE PLAYER TO A HAND. YES YOU CAN SHOW YOUR HAND BUT WHEN YOUR FREIN PLAYS YOUR HAND WITH YOU, THAT IS ILLEGAL.. LJH | ||
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| Re: Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), ADAM THE EXPERT, 22. Sep 2003 22:48 | ||
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| ASKING ANOTHER PLAYER FOR ADVISE, WHILE IN A HAND, IS A MAJOR TRANSGRESSION. THE RULE IS: ONE PLAYER TO A HAND. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT YOU WERE GOING TO CALL, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT CANNOT BE PROVEN. WHAT CAN BE PROVEN, IS THAT YOU DID ASK. ONE HUNDRED YEARS AGO, YOU COULD HAVE BEEN SHOT, FOR DOING THAT, SO I WOULD BE HAPPY WITH SPLITTING THE POT. ALSO, THERE ARE LONG TERM CONSIDERATIONS. ANYONE STUPID ENOUGH TO RAISE IN A NO LIMIT GAME, WITH A 46, IS SOMEONE YOU WANT TO PLAY WITH, AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN. BY GIVING UP THE $37, YOU WILL INSURE THAT HE PLAYS WITH YOU AGAIN, AND YOU WILL MAKE UP THAT MONEY, TWENTY TIMES OVER. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SHOWING YOU CARDS, AND SHOWING AND ASKING FOR ADVICE, SO THE COMPARISON TO SCOTTY IS NOT VALID | ||
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| Re: Unusual ethical situation - please advise!!! (long), Michael C, 23. Sep 2003 08:47 | ||
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| IMO - showing hole cards is okay as long as no advice is sought or given. But, this is risky business. I play in a B&M and those are the rules as I understand them. English only at the table and one player per hand. I have shown my holdem hold cards a few times but never ask for advice and I expect that the other person not say anything. That has always the case, so far. After the hand, show one show all. So if I am not called and do not want to show all I muck them. Of course, online there could be 5 people per hand and you would not know it. However, it would be hard to come to a decision with that many. | ||
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