United Poker Forum  

Server Time: 9/4/2008 9:40:00 PM PACIFIC  
Ciaffone and Brier Are Wrong!, mkpoker, 17. Sep 2003 22:49
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
(I confess to an overly inflammatory subject line...but I'm a writer and know that provocative leads get readers!)

I'm reading Ciaffone and Brier's Mid-Limit Hold 'Em--a great book that I enthusiastically recommend. Scores of detailed examples follow each chapter's narrative, which really help illuminate the concepts discussed.

In one of those examples, I flat-out disagree with the authors, and wonder what other UPFers think. In fairness, C&B say it presents a close decision between calling and reraising...and they recommend calling. IMHO, a reraise is clearly warranted.

Here's the example:

10-20 HE. You're in the SB with AsKc. 3 limpers to you. You raise. BB folds and all limpers call. The EP player "is an elderly lady who rarely raises or plays strongly unless she has excellent cards. On the other hand, she will faithfully check and call if she has any chance of winning."

Flop comes Kd7h7c. You bet. EP elderly lady raises and the other limpers fold. What do you do?

Ciaffone and Brier advise calling. That note that if the EP player holds a 7, you're not getting the right odds to call, but , they write, it's closer than the immediate odds would indicate because of the high implied odds if another K hits the board. They advise that "calling is the best play, since you can check the turn if a blank comes, and she will continue betting a worse king, if that is her hand."

I think you can virtually discount the possibility that she has a 7. Remember, she's a tight conservative player who open-limped from EP. With what hands might she have limped from EP? Maybe 77 (highly unlikely, but you're toast however you play if she flopped quads). Maybe A7s, but that's really not a conservative way to play.

Given her bet on the flop, I'd feel very comfortable putting her on KQ, KJ or a middle pair like TT. Either way, you're dominating her hand at this point.

The only reason NOT to reraise, IMHO, is if you fear it might drive her out of the hand. But if indeed she's a "faithful" calling station, she probably won't give up top two pair under any circumstances--especially since your preflop raises indicated high cards (so it's unlikely she'd put you on trip 7s). I say reraise here and bet out on the turn and river.

BTW, C&B write that in the actual hand the EP held KQ. The turn and the river were blanks, "and when checked to she continued to bet."
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Ciaffone and Brier Are Wrong!, Matt Steele, 17. Sep 2003 23:21
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Your inflammatory line worked! I agree with you. I am reading it right now and thought a raise was the correct answer. I wouldn't put her on 7s. Maybe KQ KJ or even AK. Of course, I'm no pro but its my opinion. Great book though overall. I really like the quizzes and i plan on moving up when I am done reading and rereading it. I have been playing $3-6 for years and feel a move up to the lower end of middle limit Holdem is finally for me in the near future. Good post mkpoker.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Ciaffone and Brier Are Wrong!, shorn, 18. Sep 2003 06:56
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
I think it is very close. I have not read the book yet, but I might agree with C&B for one simple reason. If she is such a tight player, there is a chance that if you 3-bet the flop, she may fold KQ on the turn and river, thereby costing you a few bets. Additionally, on the off chance that she limped with 77 or A7s, you save yourself money in the situations where you are behind.

Frankly, if you aren't beaten already, what is she drawing with that can beat you? QQ-22 (other than 77)? If you 3-bet the flop and she doesn't have a King, might she not throw it away? She most likely wouldn't have limped with AA and she certainly wouldn't raise the flop with KK, so I think that calling is the optimal strategy (with that flop) against that player.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Ciaffone and Brier Are Wrong!, Roy Cooke, 18. Sep 2003 07:16
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Hi MK

I would flat call the flop and check-raise the turn. Since she calls with any hand that has a chance, she is paying this off.....This play gets the most bets in.....I can also make a case for raising the flop and folding the turn if three bet on the flop....But I agree with you...Tough to read her for a 7!

Roy Cooke

on 17. Sep 2003 22:49 mkpoker wrote:
> (I confess to an overly inflammatory subject line...but I'm a writer and know
> that provocative leads get readers!)
>
> I'm reading Ciaffone and Brier's Mid-Limit Hold 'Em--a great book that I
> enthusiastically recommend. Scores of detailed examples follow each chapter's
> narrative, which really help illuminate the concepts discussed.
>
> In one of those examples, I flat-out disagree with the authors, and wonder what
> other UPFers think. In fairness, C&B say it presents a close decision between
> calling and reraising...and they recommend calling. IMHO, a reraise is clearly
> warranted.
>
> Here's the example:
>
> 10-20 HE. You're in the SB with AsKc. 3 limpers to you. You raise. BB folds
> and all limpers call. The EP player "is an elderly lady who rarely raises or
> plays strongly unless she has excellent cards. On the other hand, she will
> faithfully check and call if she has any chance of winning."
>
> Flop comes Kd7h7c. You bet. EP elderly lady raises and the other limpers
> fold. What do you do?
>
> Ciaffone and Brier advise calling. That note that if the EP player holds a 7,
> you're not getting the right odds to call, but , they write, it's closer than
> the immediate odds would indicate because of the high implied odds if another K
> hits the board. They advise that "calling is the best play, since you can
> check the turn if a blank comes, and she will continue betting a worse king, if
> that is her hand."
>
> I think you can virtually discount the possibility that she has a 7. Remember,
> she's a tight conservative player who open-limped from EP. With what hands
> might she have limped from EP? Maybe 77 (highly unlikely, but you're toast
> however you play if she flopped quads). Maybe A7s, but that's really not a
> conservative way to play.
>
> Given her bet on the flop, I'd feel very comfortable putting her on KQ, KJ or a
> middle pair like TT. Either way, you're dominating her hand at this point.
>
> The only reason NOT to reraise, IMHO, is if you fear it might drive her out of
> the hand. But if indeed she's a "faithful" calling station, she probably won't
> give up top two pair under any circumstances--especially since your preflop
> raises indicated high cards (so it's unlikely she'd put you on trip 7s). I say
> reraise here and bet out on the turn and river.
>
> BTW, C&B write that in the actual hand the EP held KQ. The turn and the river
> were blanks, "and when checked to she continued to bet."
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Ciaffone and Brier Are Wrong!, Mark, 19. Sep 2003 13:46
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Hi mk

I just happened to be re-reading flop section yesterday. I too originally thought a 3 bet was the answer. And i still did, until i read Roy's post.

But i don't think slowing down is correct in this spot.

Jim and Bob's book has sparked alot of debate on hands. A while back in cardplayer mag, Bob had a 3 or 4 part article detailing some of the most debated hands, with opinions from various players. they always defend their work, but do acknowledge that other plays are justifyable in some circumstances.

Mark
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Ciaffone and Brier Are Wrong!, Andrew Wells, 20. Sep 2003 19:15
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
I'd probably call on the flop since I don't want this player to be thinking about her kicker if she does have a king. I'm going to lead again on the turn, because I doubt she will bet again without at least AK here. I also think there is a good possibility she won't raise again unless she has AK beaten, but may very well call both the turn and river with something like KQ or KJ. If she raises again on the turn, I'm probably going to release. If she happens to have AK and raises, then I'm outplayed - but she does have position so I'm not that keen about making it three bets on the flop.
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Ciaffone and Brier Are Wrong!, Lou Krieger, 14. Oct 2003 11:46
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
on 17. Sep 2003 22:49 mkpoker wrote:

"They advise that "calling is the best play, since you can check the turn if a blank comes, and she will continue betting a worse king, if
that is her hand." <snip, snip> BTW, C&B write that in the actual hand the EP held KQ. The turn and the river were blanks, "and when checked to she continued to bet."

If you're up against an opponent that will fold to a bet or a checkraise but bet if checked to, then giving that kind of opponent a chance to bet is the right thing to do. I think a lot of this hand really depends on how you read your opponent's playing proclivity. This is certainly not a cookie-cutter kind of a hand, where one approach is correct in every under all conditions. Wouldn't you agree?

Lou Krieger

Raise your game with Lou Krieger, author of "Poker For Dummies" and five other books about poker, at Royal Vegas Poker
http://www.royalvegaspoker.com/lou
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Ciaffone and Brier Are Wrong!, mkpoker, 14. Oct 2003 12:16
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
on 14. Oct 2003 11:46 Lou Krieger wrote:
> If you're up against an opponent that will fold to a bet or a checkraise but bet if
> checked to, then giving that kind of opponent a chance to bet is the right thing to
> do. I think a lot of this hand really depends on how you read your opponent's
> playing proclivity. This is certainly not a cookie-cutter kind of a hand, where one
> approach is correct in every under all conditions. Wouldn't you agree?
> Lou Krieger
>
I absolutely agree. I based my recommendation to reraise on C&B's description of the player as a "faithful calling station" who'll pay off to the river if she caught a decent piece of the flop. In that case, I think you'd want to get as much money into the pot as possible. Certainly, if you thought the opponent might fold, you'd want to slow down to keep her in. Or, as you suggest, you could check and let her bet for you.

C&B's MLHE is a terrific book. For me, the best part was the challenge of "matching wits" with these terrific players on actual hands and situations they've faced. 99.9 percent of the time, I discovered why their reasoning was better than mine, and I learned from the experience. The real gem was the remaining 0.1 percent--examples like this where I honestly feel a stronger case can be made for an alternate play.

I hope it doesn't sound hubristic, but being able to "challenge" the real experts (and at least make a decent case for my POV) helps me fight off intimidation from far more experienced players at the poker tables. I figure, if I can make a case against C&B, I'm certainly not out of my league at 5/10 and 10/20!
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Ciaffone and Brier Are Wrong!, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 18:15
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
having played poker with said elderly lady, i put her on 7's

on 17. Sep 2003 22:49 mkpoker wrote:
> (I confess to an overly inflammatory subject line...but I'm a writer and know
> that provocative leads get readers!)
>
> I'm reading Ciaffone and Brier's Mid-Limit Hold 'Em--a great book that I
> enthusiastically recommend. Scores of detailed examples follow each chapter's
> narrative, which really help illuminate the concepts discussed.
>
> In one of those examples, I flat-out disagree with the authors, and wonder what
> other UPFers think. In fairness, C&B say it presents a close decision between
> calling and reraising...and they recommend calling. IMHO, a reraise is clearly
> warranted.
>
> Here's the example:
>
> 10-20 HE. You're in the SB with AsKc. 3 limpers to you. You raise. BB folds
> and all limpers call. The EP player "is an elderly lady who rarely raises or
> plays strongly unless she has excellent cards. On the other hand, she will
> faithfully check and call if she has any chance of winning."
>
> Flop comes Kd7h7c. You bet. EP elderly lady raises and the other limpers
> fold. What do you do?
>
> Ciaffone and Brier advise calling. That note that if the EP player holds a 7,
> you're not getting the right odds to call, but , they write, it's closer than
> the immediate odds would indicate because of the high implied odds if another K
> hits the board. They advise that "calling is the best play, since you can
> check the turn if a blank comes, and she will continue betting a worse king, if
> that is her hand."
>
> I think you can virtually discount the possibility that she has a 7. Remember,
> she's a tight conservative player who open-limped from EP. With what hands
> might she have limped from EP? Maybe 77 (highly unlikely, but you're toast
> however you play if she flopped quads). Maybe A7s, but that's really not a
> conservative way to play.
>
> Given her bet on the flop, I'd feel very comfortable putting her on KQ, KJ or a
> middle pair like TT. Either way, you're dominating her hand at this point.
>
> The only reason NOT to reraise, IMHO, is if you fear it might drive her out of
> the hand. But if indeed she's a "faithful" calling station, she probably won't
> give up top two pair under any circumstances--especially since your preflop
> raises indicated high cards (so it's unlikely she'd put you on trip 7s). I say
> reraise here and bet out on the turn and river.
>
> BTW, C&B write that in the actual hand the EP held KQ. The turn and the river
> were blanks, "and when checked to she continued to bet."
"Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have."
--Steve Badger
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Ciaffone and Brier Are Wrong!, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 18:16
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
lol, my AK no good


on 14. Oct 2003 18:15 modestmice wrote:
> having played poker with said elderly lady, i put her on 7's
>
> on 17. Sep 2003 22:49 mkpoker wrote:
> > (I confess to an overly inflammatory subject line...but I'm a writer and know
> > that provocative leads get readers!)
> >
> > I'm reading Ciaffone and Brier's Mid-Limit Hold 'Em--a great book that I
> > enthusiastically recommend. Scores of detailed examples follow each chapter's
> > narrative, which really help illuminate the concepts discussed.
> >
> > In one of those examples, I flat-out disagree with the authors, and wonder what
> > other UPFers think. In fairness, C&B say it presents a close decision between
> > calling and reraising...and they recommend calling. IMHO, a reraise is clearly
> > warranted.
> >
> > Here's the example:
> >
> > 10-20 HE. You're in the SB with AsKc. 3 limpers to you. You raise. BB folds
> > and all limpers call. The EP player "is an elderly lady who rarely raises or
> > plays strongly unless she has excellent cards. On the other hand, she will
> > faithfully check and call if she has any chance of winning."
> >
> > Flop comes Kd7h7c. You bet. EP elderly lady raises and the other limpers
> > fold. What do you do?
> >
> > Ciaffone and Brier advise calling. That note that if the EP player holds a 7,
> > you're not getting the right odds to call, but , they write, it's closer than
> > the immediate odds would indicate because of the high implied odds if another K
> > hits the board. They advise that "calling is the best play, since you can
> > check the turn if a blank comes, and she will continue betting a worse king, if
> > that is her hand."
> >
> > I think you can virtually discount the possibility that she has a 7. Remember,
> > she's a tight conservative player who open-limped from EP. With what hands
> > might she have limped from EP? Maybe 77 (highly unlikely, but you're toast
> > however you play if she flopped quads). Maybe A7s, but that's really not a
> > conservative way to play.
> >
> > Given her bet on the flop, I'd feel very comfortable putting her on KQ, KJ or a
> > middle pair like TT. Either way, you're dominating her hand at this point.
> >
> > The only reason NOT to reraise, IMHO, is if you fear it might drive her out of
> > the hand. But if indeed she's a "faithful" calling station, she probably won't
> > give up top two pair under any circumstances--especially since your preflop
> > raises indicated high cards (so it's unlikely she'd put you on trip 7s). I say
> > reraise here and bet out on the turn and river.
> >
> > BTW, C&B write that in the actual hand the EP held KQ. The turn and the river
> > were blanks, "and when checked to she continued to bet."
> "Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all.
> Know-it-all-ism is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have."
> --Steve Badger
"Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have."
--Steve Badger
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Ciaffone and Brier Are Wrong!, Michael C, 9. Jan 2004 16:00
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Great post from all - interesting reading.

"If you're up against an opponent that will fold to a bet or a checkraise but bet if checked to, then giving that kind of opponent a chance to bet is the right thing to do. I think a lot of this hand really depends on how you read your opponent's playing proclivity. This is certainly not a cookie-cutter kind of a hand, where one approach is correct in every under all conditions. Wouldn't you agree? " LK

Sometimes I feel like the old lady that meets this description from Lou. So, let's reverse the hand and I will be the EP with KJ and it is checked to me on the Turn.

What is the recommended aproach? Check? We know how the hand turned out so checking is the correct approach. But, if we did not know is the bet correct or is check better.

Need to learn 1) how to save a few bets or 2) don't play KJ :)

Thanks
        Return to Thread List
 
 
       POKER FORUM HOME   |   POKER FORUM   |   LINK TO US   |   ARCHIVE   |   ONLINE POKER Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum  
Getting Started |  UPF Tournaments |  Poker News, Views, Rules |  Poker Strategy & Psychology |  Money and Bankroll
Poker Bonuses & Promotions |  World Series of Poker (WSOP) |  Play Online Poker |  Poker Odds & Statistics |  Tournament Poker |  Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools
Looking for a Poker Game |  Poker Bad Beats |  Not Quite Poker |  Quizzes and Polls |  Forum Suggestions & Bugs

Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network