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Server Time: 9/6/2008 9:57:05 AM PACIFIC |
 Moving from 2-4 tables to 3-6 to10-20, MrTeLLnj, 17. Sep 2003 16:30 | ||
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| Ok im 21..have been playing poker for about a year or 2 at home with friends and at randome poker gettogethers, online and about 2times a month ill go to Atlantic city to play low limit holdem(2-4). I do well , loose some win some,but i feel like i am making nothing for the 4-8 hours at the table. I want to move up to 3-6 or maybe 5-10( ooorrrr maybe just maybe 10 -20 but i dont know about that). I usualy sit down at a 2-4 table with 80$to 100$ bucks What would it take $$$$ wize to play above 2-4, skill wize witch i have some, do people fold more, what if im scared to play 5-10 because of loosing maybe 100 bucks in one hand. I hear it is easier to play mid-limit than a 2-4 game. CAN ANYONE TELL ME ANY EXPERIENCES WITH THIS SITUATION OR SHOULD I STAY WITH 2-4... Ps.......would entering mini 1 table tournaments ( 30- 60 $ buy ins) be worth it. Seem like the profit if winning is prity good. | ||
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| Re: Moving from 2-4 tables to 3-6 to10-20, Chris Austin, 17. Sep 2003 21:46 | ||
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| I myself am 18 and essentially I am a starving student attending college this year. I have a very limited bank roll to play poker with. And when I mean limited, I mean about $100. I have setup some capital management rules which have helped me play poker properly since I started my $20 bankroll over the summer. I think it might help you. I would never go into a game without a bankroll at least 200xBig Bet. This is a common rule of thumb for a lot of people. I also buy into a game with 15xBig Bet. My stop loss is 15xBig Bet and my win expectations are 15-30xBig Bet. Once I hit that I will play one more hand, and if I lose and don't think the game is gonna get any easier for me or don't see myself having the advantage, I will just pick up my winnings and leave. So right now I should only be buying into $.25/$.50 games. Thats what I do mostly. Me and the local boys play that about once a week. Occasionally I have stopped by a $1/$2 game for lil. I only stop by when I know I will have an advantage in the game and am feeling well and am in a good mood. I will never buy into a higher stakes game till I have a larger roll. Thats a rule I setup for myself. It helps discipline me in everything I do poker wise. If I go on a bad beat, I will have a bankroll big enough to handle a losing session (or a couple in a row if they occur) because I stuck to my rules. Now if your at a $2/$4 table and you don't see yourself going anywhere, ask yourself if you are really a $2/$4 calibur player? Do you have an equal amount of skill as the others there? Or do you have more or less? If you don't find yourself answering "Yes I have more" then why are you playing there? Why don't you drop to a $1/$2 game and take it from there. It is bound to be a little easier, if not a little looser too. Now if you really really really want to buy into a higher table (I would advise agianst it after listening to you) I would say you need about $2/$4 = $60 Buy In Min. $3/$6 = $90 Buy In Min. $4/$8 = $120 Buy In Min. And finally why would you play at a table where your afraid to lose your money? Thats just gonna happen your abilities to play your best. I would say your best bet is to drop down to the $1/$2 tables and try your luck there and build up your bankroll. PS-Playing in tournaments is some of the cheapest ways to learn how to play poker if you are observant. See if you can find some that are a lil cheaper. Possibly in the $5-$10 range. | ||
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| Re: Moving from 2-4 tables to 3-6 to10-20, shorn, 18. Sep 2003 06:34 | ||
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| Assuming that you have the bankroll to play the higher game (at least 200 big bets) I think the determining factors as to whether or not you should move up permanently are: (1) are you consistently beating the 2-4 game to the degree where it isn't at all challenging anymore, and (2) are you COMPLETELY confident that you can sit in a 3/6 or 5/10 game and play your best with no worries whatsoever about the money involved. If you can't answer yes to both of these questions, then a permanent move upward is a no-no. That is not to say that if you are feeling particularly well one night and there is a seat open in what looks to be a good higher game, that you can't shouldn't take a shot. Just be careful to not play at stakes where your decison-making is clouded by the amount of $$ involved (search the forum for a thread called "Don't play too high" to see my experience with this). Consistently beating the game means that you are winning more than 1 big bet an hour over an extended period of time too (like 1000 hours of play). Anything less than that sample (and frankly, even that sample is too small to give you a 99% confidence interval) could simply be a run of cards where you are on the good end of statistical probability. Don't take this the wrong way...I have no knowledge of you or your poker game. I just don't want you to make some of the same mistakes that I made by moving up too early. Good luck. Steve | ||
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| Re: Moving from 2-4 tables to 3-6 to10-20, grant pittman, 18. Sep 2003 12:01 | ||
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| Any time you take a seat in a poker game you must be prepared to lose. Some of the best players I know (who are also some of the best in the world in their game of choice) have a win/loss record of 63%-37% for individual sessions. This is a life long statistic that is consistent for them!!!!! This means that they lose close to 4 out of 10 sessions that they play. If you put yourself in a spot where winning is a must you had better be prepared to deal with going broke and OFTEN!!! I was fortunate enough to build my bankroll starting at 5-10 and 10-20 when I was learning holdem although I had some experience playing bigger (mostly pot limit) prior to this. When I stepped up higher on my trips to Vegas I would play 20-40 but I would only bring $2000 for a weekend trip and often went broke. I was very lucky to have the 10-20 game at home to play and I eventually built enough money up where I could play higher and take a few hits without it hurting. I would suggest the same plan of attack for you. Build your money playing with weaker opponents and work on your game.....don't be too anxious to play with the big boys....sometimes when they hit you it hurts!!!! Good luck!! GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Moving from 2-4 tables to 3-6 to10-20, Joey Joe Joe, 18. Sep 2003 12:36 | ||
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| A great player winning only 63% of the time? Come on. I know several players who routinely win around 90-95% of the time. Sure it would be a little less in the bigger games, but I'm sure the best players there win at least 85% of the time. Quite frankly Grant, there's some special players out there. | ||
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| Re: Moving from 2-4 tables to 3-6 to10-20, grant pittman, 18. Sep 2003 13:13 | ||
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| I was waiting for you to pop up Jerry!!!!! | ||
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| Re: Moving from 2-4 tables to 3-6 to10-20, stdioh, 18. Sep 2003 13:57 | ||
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| At any limit you want to play, you're going to need a bankroll (basically the amount you're willing to lose before you quit playing) of at least 300 big bets ... so at 10-20, you'd want $6000 you'd be willing to part with. Skill wise depends on so much. Basically, you should go to the 5-10 and take a shot at it ... see if you can beat the game and what it is like ... if it is too tough, move back down and get some practice in. But don't rush things. | ||
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| Re: Moving from 2-4 tables to 3-6 to10-20, ADAM THE EXPERT, 21. Sep 2003 00:23 | ||
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| WELL, YOU ASK A LOT OF QUESTIONS, AND I WILL TRY TO ANSWER THEM ALL. HA HA. YOU ARE LUMPING THREE SIX, FIVE TEN AND TEN TWENTY, ALL IN THE SAME CATEGORY. EACH OF THESE ARE AS DIFFERENT, AS LUNGS AND EYES AND FEET. THEY ARE ALL BODY PARTS, BUT THAT'S WHERE THE SIMILARITIES END. EACH OF THE THREE HOLD EM LIMITS, PLAYS VERY DIFFERENTLY ESPECIALLY THE TEN TWENTY. TEN TWENTY TEXAS HOLD EM, IS SO DIFFERENT THAN THREE SIX HOLD EM, THAT THE TWO SHOULD NOT EVEN BE MENTIONED IN THE SAME BREATH. THE SKILLS THAT YOU WILL NEED AT TEN TWENTY, ARE COMPLETLY DIFFERENT, THAN THOSE AT THREE SIX, AND ARE NOT NOT A THOUSAND TIMES NOT, GOING TO BE LEARNED FROM ANY AMOUNT OF PLAYING TWO FOUR, WHETHER TWO, OR TWO THOUSAND YEARS. ONLY A CAREFUL EDUCATION, WITH SPENDING SEVERAL THOUSAND, ON ACTUAL TEN TWENTY EXPERIENCE, WILL PREPARE YOU FOR THIS GAME, AND THEN, THEN, ONLY IF YOU POSSESS THE NATURAL TALENT(S) REQUIRED FOR THIS GAME. wHEN YOU CAN RECITE THE SKLANSKY/MALMUTH HOLD EM BOOK, BY HEART, AND ANSWER DETAILED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CONCEPTS DISCUSSED THEREIN, THEN AND ONLY THEN ASK ME ABOUT TEN TWENTY. OTHERWISE, YOU WILL GO THE WAY OF SOME MANY THOUSANDS OF PLAYERS BEFORE YOU, WHO MOVED UP TO SOON, AND OR TOO FAR: BROKE AND A FAILURE. DO'NT MEAN TO BE SO HARSH, BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU NEED A REALITY CHECK. AS FAR AS THE 30 AND FIFTY SINGLE TABLE EVENTS, THESE ARE VERY VERY VERY PROFITABLE, ALTHOUGH THE SHORT TERM FLUCULATIONS, ARE MUCH HIGHER THAN "RING" GAMES. YOU REALLY NEED TO PLAY AT LEAST 400-600 OF THOSE SUCKERS, TO HAVE ANY SEMBLENCE OF A PICTURE OF WHAT YOUR LONG TERM HOURLY RATE IS. PLEASE DON'T MAKE THE MISTAKE OF TOO MUCH TOO SOON. WE ALL KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO RIVER PHOENIX, FREDDIE PRINZE, AND OTHER YOUNG STARS, WHO HAD TOO MUCH TOO SOON. THERE IS ONE HELL OF A LIVING TO BE MADE, PLAYING MULTIPLE THREE SIX GAMES AT A TIME, SO REMEMBER THOSE WHO GET GREEDY, GET NEEDY. LEARN OTHER GAMES THAN HOLD EM. ANYTHING, IS BETTER THAN HOLD EM. THERE IS EXCELLENT MONEY TO BE MADE, IN THREE SIX OMAHA, AND HIGH LOW STUD. THIS WILL MAKE YOUR WORK DAY, MUCH MORE INTERESTING, AND PROFITABLE, PROVIDING THAT YOU DON'T GET CONFUSED, PLAYING THREE DIFFENENT GAMES AT A TIME. FOR THIS, I WOULD DEFFINATELY SUGGEST INVESTING IN A LARGE MONITOR, WHICH I DON'T SUGGEST, IF PLAYING ALL THE SAME GAME. ONLINE RULES, AT LOWER LIMITS. LIVE CASINOS RULE, IN LARGE LIMITS. BUT THEN, WE AREN'T READY FOR LARGE LIMITS YET. I | ||
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| Re: Moving from Request to Prayer, timmer, 26. Nov 2003 11:45 | ||
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| HEAVENLY FATHER, Please guide our brother ADAM to, at least sometimes, write in a legible and readable manner. In Jesus's name we pray Amen UPF Readers | ||
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| Re: Moving from 2-4 tables to 3-6 to10-20, docholiday420, 21. Jan 2004 17:07 | ||
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| I agree that different stake are different skills. Though there is a different kind of play in high limit games, not as much loose players, and not getting as frustrated as people in a 2/4 as opposed to 5/10 there is a reason why. There are much better players. A dealer in vegas told me one night that I should stop playing 2/4 and play minimum 5/10 to really make money, people t\don't stay in as often. but people staying can not always be a bad ing. he advised me this though because he seen me play the whole weekend there and saw me winning, and only losing hands for the most part when people got lucky. However not to insult ur skills, but if u r not winning at 2/4 where is the confidence to think u can play up at 5/10 and oh my god 10/20. Let ur bankroll determine ur starkes, not the other way around. U want to play high stakes, u got to have th emoney to burn and skill to win. If anything just try the 3/6 and if ur winning don't improve ask urself, is it the stakes, or have not studied and learned enough yet. My question is to other people who posted replies about bankrolls. I get the idea that a bankroll should be 200 times the big bet. I play 3/6 stud as opposed to hold 'em. I know the game better and its really just about making money. My question is I can't see the logic of going into that game with a 1200 bankroll. With that much money at the table at a game where I can expect to make a profit of 40 a hand average. Now with bankroll like that lets say I lose 400 dollars. How many hands starit do I now I have to win to get back up to even? 10, not counting bets I makes for a few hands I just fold. Now if I lost the 1200, I just feel that might be too much of a bankroll. I buy in for the 3/6 at just 180, 30 times the big bet, not 300. If I find myself down to around forty left I think of getting out. reason being this is not my session or feel for the table. Get up play agina when u might hit a streak of cards. i just think that is too much of a bankrool and it can drop u in such a hole, that u can't get back up. Poker is easy to lose and hard to get back up. The chip count may seem intimidating but with 1200 I might play f/10 and debate about 10/20. It's just too much money it seems to be that ur going to go down and try to get back at those tsakes. Down 800 and make it back or profit at 3/6. If u lose 200 at the table leave for the day, u either don't know what ur doing or hit a streak of cold cards. anybody play for blood | ||
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| Re: Moving from 2-4 tables to 3-6 to10-20, starstealer, 22. Jan 2004 06:55 | ||
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| What I think you are confusing are two concepts of a bankroll. The first you mention (200 big bets for example) would be your complete bankroll - this is an amount you would hope is enough to withstand fluctuations at your limit without having to put more money in. The second concept is the session bankroll. This is the amount that you actually bring to the table. This would be the 20-30 big bets that you are playing with for that particular session. Yes you can add to the session bankroll from your full bankroll if things are going poorly, but the act of doing so is not automatic. If you don't have all of the money in the same place, it forces you to think before you get the money. Hope that helps. | ||
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| Re: Moving from 2-4 tables to 3-6 to10-20, docholiday420, 22. Jan 2004 19:57 | ||
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| yeah that does, I had feeling that was what people meant but just wanted ot be sure. So at like a 1/2 table have 400 and don't move up to 3/6 until I have like 1200 at the same time buy in for 60 each time at 1/2 and 180 each time at 3/6. I'm also starting to see the logic in making one big bet an hour. It fdoesn't really add up at a 3/6 but it does at a 10/20, 20/40 or thge higher ones, the levels real pros play at | ||
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| Re: Moving from 2-4 tables to 3-6 to10-20, docholiday420, 22. Jan 2004 23:44 | ||
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| is a good goal though somehting like 5 big bets a session to make round it out and make a stead grind. | ||
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