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Server Time: 9/6/2008 10:05:15 AM PACIFIC |
 Whose the better player?, JonnyC, 16. Sep 2003 21:57 | ||
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| I've been reading all the posts on early morning pro play, and a question popped into my head. If an 18 year old kid plays poker every day for a year for five hours a day, then he(or she) logs over 1800 hours of poker. BUT, since the games go twice as fast AND for some of that time he's been playing two games simultanously, I think it can be safe to say he gets in at least 4000 hours of poker(In relation to a B&M)... On the other hand, you have a kid who starts out at 18 and plays at a casino every other Saturday for five hours a week for thirty years, he will also log 4000 hours. Saying both play with the same learning curve and bankroll, who is the better player? The first kid, who is now 19...or the second kid, who is now 48? The moral of the story is, when these 19 year old kids walk into a casino they could easily have as much serious hours logged as a 30 year "vet". Just my two cents... Jon | ||
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| Re: Whose the better player?, Nathaniel Brous, 16. Sep 2003 23:01 | ||
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| Sum up...smart money is on the older player. Comments within. on 16. Sep 2003 21:57 JonnyC wrote: > I've been reading all the posts on early morning pro play, and a question popped into my head. If an 18 year old kid plays poker every day for a year for five hours a day, then he(or she) logs over 1800 hours of poker. BUT, since the games go twice as fast AND for some of that time he's been playing two games simultaneously, I think it can be safe to say he gets in at least 4000 hours of poker(In relation to a B&M)...< In relation to B&M? Apples and Oranges come to mind here. > On the other hand, you have a kid who starts out at 18 and plays at a casino every other Saturday for five hours a week for thirty years, he will also log 4000 hours. Saying both play with the same learning curve and bankroll, who is the better player?< If two people have the same amount of hours AND the same learning curve...would they not be exactly equal in skill? But for the record, I willing to state that it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone who plays 5 hours twice a month have the same learning curve as someone who plays five hours a day, every day for a year. >The first kid, who is now 19...or the second kid, who is now 48? The moral of the story is, when these 19 year old kids walk into a casino they could easily have as much serious hours logged as a 30 year "vet". Just my two cents... Jon < If this post was in jest...than I was taken in. If not, I have a few thoughts. Online play is not directly comparable to play in a B&M room. If you have only played online...you would be severely handicapped. In a casino, there are many more factors that must be considered. You must keep track of the money in the pot yourself. You must control your emotions and expressions. The play is so much slower than playing two tables online. It would seem to crawl. You need much more paitence for B&M. You physically have to deal with people. You can't switch tables at will. The list goes on and on. Let's move on to something else. The first kid is 19...but the second kid is not a kid anymore. He is an adult with vast stores to draw on. (I am not saying all adults play well...some make the same errors year in and year out.) Even if the impossible happened and they had the same learning curve (as in poker knowledge), the adult would have experience in controlling himself and would be infinitely more paitent then the 19 year old. Next subject. I can't classify a person who plays 5 hours a week twice a month a "vet." A recreational player maybe. He obviously never counted on making money by playing poker. He probably doesn't care too much whether he wins or loses (though everyone likes to win), because it doesn't affect the way he lives his life. Moving on with this (a bit absurd pardon me) premise of the same learning curve. Think about the last time you played poker or rather think about the last time you thought about the last time you played poker. We all do it. It helps us process what we have seen and helps us learn. This guy has all the time in the world between sessions, yet not even subconciously thinks about it. The younger player is doing a crash course and simply doesn't have the time to absorb all he is experiencing. Lastly....phew! (didn't mean to go off the deep end here) The question of "serious" hours. What are they? Are "serious hours" simply playing to the best of your ability with the knowledge that you currently have? What if you don't have excellent poker knowledge? Are the hours less serious? IT'S NOT THE HOURS YOU PUT IN....IT'S WHAT YOU PUT INTO THE HOURS! It's also what you put in...away from the table. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Whose the better player?, 4 POKER, 16. Sep 2003 23:11 | ||
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| Great post Nathaniel. 4P- on 16. Sep 2003 23:01 Nathaniel Brous wrote: > Sum up...smart money is on the older player. Comments within. > > on 16. Sep 2003 21:57 JonnyC wrote: > > I've been reading all the posts on early morning pro play, and a question popped > into my head. If an 18 year old kid plays poker every day for a year for five hours a > day, then he(or she) logs over 1800 hours of poker. BUT, since the games go twice as > fast AND for some of that time he's been playing two games simultaneously, I think it > can be safe to say he gets in at least 4000 hours of poker(In relation to a > B&M)...< > > In relation to B&M? Apples and Oranges come to mind here. > > > On the other hand, you have a kid who starts out at 18 and plays at a casino > every other Saturday for five hours a week for thirty years, he will also log 4000 > hours. Saying both play with the same learning curve and bankroll, who is the better > player?< > > If two people have the same amount of hours AND the same learning curve...would they > not be exactly equal in skill? But for the record, I willing to state that it is > IMPOSSIBLE for someone who plays 5 hours twice a month have the same learning curve > as someone who plays five hours a day, every day for a year. > > >The first kid, who is now 19...or the second kid, who is now 48? The moral of the > story is, when these 19 year old kids walk into a casino they could easily have as > much serious hours logged as a 30 year "vet". Just my two cents... Jon < > > If this post was in jest...than I was taken in. If not, I have a few thoughts. > Online play is not directly comparable to play in a B&M room. If you have only > played online...you would be severely handicapped. In a casino, there are many more > factors that must be considered. You must keep track of the money in the pot > yourself. You must control your emotions and expressions. The play is so much > slower than playing two tables online. It would seem to crawl. You need much more > paitence for B&M. You physically have to deal with people. You can't switch tables > at will. The list goes on and on. Let's move on to something else. > > The first kid is 19...but the second kid is not a kid anymore. He is an adult with > vast stores to draw on. (I am not saying all adults play well...some make the same > errors year in and year out.) Even if the impossible happened and they had the same > learning curve (as in poker knowledge), the adult would have experience in > controlling himself and would be infinitely more paitent then the 19 year old. > > Next subject. I can't classify a person who plays 5 hours a week twice a month a > "vet." A recreational player maybe. He obviously never counted on making money by > playing poker. He probably doesn't care too much whether he wins or loses (though > everyone likes to win), because it doesn't affect the way he lives his life. > > Moving on with this (a bit absurd pardon me) premise of the same learning curve. > Think about the last time you played poker or rather think about the last time you > thought about the last time you played poker. We all do it. It helps us process > what we have seen and helps us learn. This guy has all the time in the world between > sessions, yet not even subconciously thinks about it. The younger player is doing a > crash course and simply doesn't have the time to absorb all he is experiencing. > > Lastly....phew! (didn't mean to go off the deep end here) The question of > "serious" hours. What are they? Are "serious hours" simply playing to the best of > your ability with the knowledge that you currently have? What if you don't have > excellent poker knowledge? Are the hours less serious? IT'S NOT THE HOURS YOU PUT > IN....IT'S WHAT YOU PUT INTO THE HOURS! It's also what you put in...away from the > table. > > - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Whose the better player?, Nathaniel Brous, 16. Sep 2003 23:17 | ||
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| on 16. Sep 2003 23:11 4 POKER wrote: > Great post Nathaniel! 4P- Dammit Dave...you're too quick on the draw. I was trying to get an edit in there. lol Thanks though. Heck I will say it here then. When I think of a "Vet." I conjure images of a battle scarred, seen it all, poker table fixture....not a 130 hour a year player. Not that there are not great recreational players out there...I have come across quite a few over the years. - Nathaniel | ||
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| Re: Whose the better player?, 4 POKER, 16. Sep 2003 23:32 | ||
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| on 16. Sep 2003 23:17 Nathaniel Brous wrote: > on 16. Sep 2003 23:11 4 POKER wrote: > > Great post Nathaniel! 4P- > > Dammit Dave...you're too quick on the draw. I was trying to get an edit in there. lol > Thanks though. (&$#%^&!!.....sorry buddy)!! lol. > > Heck I will say it here then. When I think of a "Vet." I conjure images of a battle scarred, > seen it all, poker table fixture....not a 130 hour a year player. Not that there are not great > recreational players out there...I have come across quite a few over the years. - Nathaniel | ||
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| Re: Whose the better player?, shorn, 17. Sep 2003 05:14 | ||
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| I don't think you have enough information to determine the better player. Some players, young or old, are just natural's from the day they sit down. Stu Ungar and Phil Ivey come to mind. It takes others years to process the information necessary to become a great player. I don't want to age discriminate, but if I had a gun to my head, I would put my money on the older player simply because he has experienced more IN GENERAL than the 19 year old. Life experience affects your poker playing just as much as hand experience. I know all of us thought we were invincible and knew it all when we were 19 (hell, I know I did); but the plain facts are that the older you are, the wiser you generally become just because of what you have seen and done (assuming similar intelligence and talent of course). | ||
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| Re: Whose the better player?, grant pittman, 17. Sep 2003 07:10 | ||
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| I agree Jonny. A lot of people are learning to play poker online. Some of them play VERY WELL and have little or no live play experience. The games are different since some facets of the game are more important depending on where you choose to play. A lot of the players I have seen doing well are more than capable of adapting to either type of game. These players understand the game as well as the strategic concepts and how to apply them in play. It is no shock to me that strong talent has been developed through online play. Just a thought. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Experience, Roy Cooke, 17. Sep 2003 07:21 | ||
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| Hi Johnny I don't think you can determine who the better player is from how many hours they have played.....As a general rule, I think maturity is an asset in poker, so I would go with the older guy (Maybe that is because I am an older guy). That said...There are MANY young guns who have huge experience playing poker due to the online poker explosion....The Kid Erik123 who is from Sweden and has been playing as many as 8 games at a time for 4 years might have player more poker hands than I, who has been playing for 31 years.....The fact that hand histories are accessible with Internet poker has accelerated the speed in which players can acquire feel. The young guns these days are making it tough on us old folks :-) Roy Cooke on 16. Sep 2003 21:57 JonnyC wrote: > I've been reading all the posts on early morning pro play, and a question popped > into my head. > > If an 18 year old kid plays poker every day for a year for five hours a day, > then he(or she) logs over 1800 hours of poker. BUT, since the games go twice as > fast AND for some of that time he's been playing two games simultanously, I > think it can be safe to say he gets in at least 4000 hours of poker(In relation > to a B&M)... > > On the other hand, you have a kid who starts out at 18 and plays at a casino > every other Saturday for five hours a week for thirty years, he will also log > 4000 hours. > > Saying both play with the same learning curve and bankroll, who is the better > player? The first kid, who is now 19...or the second kid, who is now 48? > > The moral of the story is, when these 19 year old kids walk into a casino they > could easily have as much serious hours logged as a 30 year "vet". > > Just my two cents... > > Jon | ||
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| Re: Experience/Stereotyping, Nathaniel Brous, 17. Sep 2003 09:15 | ||
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| I think it is a given that online play can (not will) accelerate one's progress. Online play is an opportunity that simply did not exist in the past and though we have all felt the MMakerquake we certainly are not done with the aftershocks. I also think that it is very possible for players of dissimilar ages to have the same ability (just not in the rigidly outlined way of the original post). I am ageless myself, so I don't fit into either category ;) Although players of Erik123's caliber exist, they are by far the minority, and not enough to change the stereotype of the younger player. When I sit to play with a group of strangers, I try to extend the same amount of "mental poker credit" to each player. Often before entering a single hand with them, they have already made some very serious withdrawals. When we are in a situation, where the path ahead is cloudy, we must fall back on our gut (and very often stereotypes). We consult our mental library and proceed. Although there are exceptions on both ends of the spectrum, by simple years of play alone, the average older player has had more of an opportunity to be weeded out. - Nathaniel Brous on 17. Sep 2003 07:21 Roy Cooke wrote: > Hi Johnny > > I don't think you can determine who the better player is from how many hours they > have played.....As a general rule, I think maturity is an asset in poker, so I would > go with the older guy (Maybe that is because I am an older guy). > > That said...There are MANY young guns who have huge experience playing poker due to > the online poker explosion....The Kid Erik123 who is from Sweden and has been playing > as many as 8 games at a time for 4 years might have player more poker hands than I, > who has been playing for 31 years.....The fact that hand histories are accessible > with Internet poker has accelerated the speed in which players can acquire feel. The > young guns these days are making it tough on us old folks :-) > > Roy Cooke | ||
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| Re: Whose the better player?, LJH, 17. Sep 2003 07:52 | ||
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| johnny,a mouse could be a mouse for 30years or 60 years, and still be a mouse. ljh | ||
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| Re: Whose the better player?, stdioh, 17. Sep 2003 10:57 | ||
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| Yeah, but the guy who playes 2 days a month for a lifetime is not experienced. Experienced players have spent 10 years playing 5 days a week at 10 hours a session. The other thing is that you don't get more experience from playing online - you get less. Online poker is missing a lot of the key pieces of poker such as the physical aspect of the game. Add to that the fact that if you are playing multiple tables at once you aren't really paying attention well to any of them - you aren't learning though you may be winning. | ||
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| Re: Whose the better player?, JonnyC, 17. Sep 2003 11:33 | ||
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| Thanks for all the replies. This question originated when i met a twenty year old kid over the summer who, instead of finding a summer job, made $10,000 playing online and in live games. He noted that 40 and 50 year old men who've been playing most thier lives assume he is a fish, and don't respect any of his calls or raises. However, after reading these posts and thinking about it more, I'm starting to agree with the fact the older player has put more into the hours he's played, and can make better decisions. (in general) But I also think I'd be a lot more scared of a 25 year old today than I would have been ten years ago. Jon | ||
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| Re: Whose the better player?, Phish, 18. Sep 2003 12:07 | ||
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| Not to sound prejudiced, but it seems the best players these days seem to be in their late 20s to late 40s. A friend of mine thinks that's because after that age, you mental acuity decreases. But I think there are two better explanation: 1) I think it's more likely because many of the older players have learnt to play without the benefit of the books and research of 2+2, Mike Caro, etc. And they have a tough time learning new tricks. Back in the old days, the games (usually home games) were much easier to beat. All you needed to do was play tight. In a casino game, doing that may make you a small winner in the small games but you'll have no shot above 20/40. I've seen so many older guys (in their 50s) who used to kill their home games, struggle and get eaten alive by the young 'wild' players. They don't understand the complexities of the game well enough to appreciate what these young upstarts are doing. And while these older players may be more experienced, experience is helpful only if you will learn from it. If you see someone raise you out of a winner and your reaction is to think, 'what an idiot, raising with that crap.' Well, you've just blown a valuable lesson. You've learnt nothing from that experience. And I think many older players are stuck in this mindset. They have an inherent belief that what they're doing is correct, and won't/can't see that what someone else is doing may be superior. And frankly, it seems that someone with natural talent and a little bit of heart and a willingness to learn can really improve his game very fast so that you can see guys in their early twenties playing better than 30-year old veterans who are lifetime winners. 2) Other reason that it appears that the younger players are better is simply that at the mid-to-high levels, bad young players cannot afford to keep playing while bad old rich players can. So the only young players you see at the 75/150 level tend to be good, while there are many rich but bad older players. Simply because the old have more money than the young. on 17. Sep 2003 11:33 JonnyC wrote: > Thanks for all the replies. This question originated when i met a twenty year old > kid over the summer who, instead of finding a summer job, made $10,000 playing online > and in live games. He noted that 40 and 50 year old men who've been playing most > thier lives assume he is a fish, and don't respect any of his calls or raises. > > However, after reading these posts and thinking about it more, I'm starting to agree > with the fact the older player has put more into the hours he's played, and can make > better decisions. (in general) > > But I also think I'd be a lot more scared of a 25 year old today than I would have > been ten years ago. > > Jon | ||
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