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Server Time: 10/11/2008 12:37:20 AM PACIFIC |
 Pinned tourney hand, G Rooster, 16. Sep 2003 08:05 | ||
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| I meant this for this group, but originally posted to "Money and odds." Sorry for duplicates. I am new to the forum, and somewhat new to online poker play. Not quite a fish, but maybe a salamander. I find the poker conversation on this site is truly superb. I'd appreciate some feedback on playing the following hand. This was dealt in an early round SNG. Table is fairly solid in play, but I took one out on a draw and am slight chip leader in MP. I'm first to limp with 8-7off and am followed by a call, 3xBB raise and another call. Raiser and caller I view to be tight, but agressive. I should probably get out, but figure I could catch a good flop against two high hands, so call. Flop comes 8d 6d 5h. Good flop for me I figure, and bet 5xBB. Both tighties call! Should I figure them for pocket pairs? trips? Draws to either straight or flush? They could NOT have the 7-9 or 7-4. Turn comes Kh and I (probably foolishly) bet out 7xBB with my oh so strong pair and open-end. Should I have played check to call or fold? Both followed with calls. River pairs the board with 6s. No flush, no straight. I'm at 8s and 6s. Do I bet out hoping they're both drawing or expect that I'm beat by trips (or worse) or higher 2-pair? I checked and so did they. The showdown? One had pocket 9s and the other pocket 4s. My straight was just about closed off. If bet into holding the 9s, would you have called? What about with the 4s? Thanks, GR | ||
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| Re: Pinned tourney hand, Jav, 16. Sep 2003 10:33 | ||
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| Your first mistake was playing a drawing hand in a NLHE tournament. You just can't do that. When your money is gone you are out. You can't get more chips, so you can't afford to risk low probability/high reward hands. Especially in a raised pot. If you were to play a hand like that (and I'm not suggesting it), you need to do it from late position in an unraised pot that looks to have a lot of people in it. That will give you the best chance to actually extract money if you do hit your low probability hand. Now if you do flop something like an open-ended straight, you don't want to bet it into more than 1 player. I think you are in a check and fold situation. Remember that the pot was raised, so you're probably looking at pocket pairs or overcards. You don't know which, so why bet your money? If there was only one other player you might take a chance, but with two players there's too good of a chance that you're hand is second or third best. You really want to hope for a free card at this point. If you did hit your straight your opponents wouldn't put you on it. The bottem line in my opinion is that you just need to wait for better opportunities. | ||
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| Re: Pinned tourney hand, G Rooster, 16. Sep 2003 12:00 | ||
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| Jav, Your advise rings true. I knew after that I shouldn't have been in a raised pot. And I don't play out draws much, but I figured I'd look at a flop against those guys. The 13 outs (straight ends, 2 8s, 3 7s) on the flop put me in good position against overcards (my advantage) or even higher pairs (about even), I figured. Of course, 9s kill me, and so do trips, but I figured I was only a slight disadvantage on the whole with good potential for a very big take. But, I guess that's the thinking that gets you in trouble in NLHE tourneys? --GR | ||
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| Re: Pinned tourney hand, Jav, 16. Sep 2003 13:35 | ||
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| That's exactly it. If it was a ring game you might be okay with that flop. But in a NL tournament you can't invest money in marginal holdings. You only have to lose one 50/50 type of hand and you're out, so you really only want to play when you think you have a very good chance of having the best hand. Good luck on your next one. | ||
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| Re: Pinned tourney hand, Bart Mann, 16. Sep 2003 14:38 | ||
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| One of the most valuable piece of advice I ever received for NLHE tournaments was this: "Don't EVER chase drawing hands. Period." Next time you're in a NLHE tournament, do your own little scientific experiment and give it a try. Stick to it 100%--no cheating--then when the tournament is over do an autopsy. If you didn't improve your placement from last time, you have my permission to spam me mercilously. The first time I tried it I finished 51 places higher than the time before (55th versus 96th in a 262 person tournament). In all seriousness, limping in with a drawing hand is an open invitation for someone to raise and either make you fold, or make you pay way too much for the opportunity to see a few cards. And if you're playing with experienced players, you WILL get punished more often than not. Save your money--then raise when YOU have the pocket kings. | ||
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| Re: Pinned tourney hand, G Rooster, 17. Sep 2003 07:39 | ||
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| I've read this (don't chase drawing hands), and I agree with it in general -- like most poker advice. But, I also believe that there are few definitives in poker. Sure, you don't want to find yourself CHASING a drawing hand if the other guy is expressing strength and he can put you on a drawing hand. But, if you can put him on overcards and you get a nice low drawing flop, with a backup pair, you should be able to hold off aggressive betting on his part and maybe even push him off it alltogether. My error came in not putting my callers on medium pairs or going strong enough to push them off. Maybe the 9s wouldn't be pushed off (never saw him call down), but the 4s certainly should have. See we all had essentially the same hand -- medium pairs drawing to the same straight. My pair was just lower. Still, the strategy I argue for -- maybe only as devil's advocate to make a point -- is quite aggressive. Maybe that doesn't work in NLHE tourneys, but I've seen enough winners use an aggressive strategy to consider it. I'd like to get such a player to give a read on this play. - GR | ||
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| Re: Pinned tourney hand, Jav, 17. Sep 2003 11:04 | ||
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| I don't think you want to play many hands in NLHE where you just don't know if you're best or not. Regardless of your holding or the board, if you think the chance of you having the best hand is around 50/50 you need to get out. You could make a bluff at it, but when you are called you have to shut down. It's just not worth the gamble. Aggression is good, but you need to be selective in when you use it, and know when to back off. In my opinion this is a situation where being too aggressive will not pay off often enough to make it a good play. You had two people call your flop bet. Not just one. They called your bet with something, and it could just have easily been one of them slowplaying a set or another trap hand. | ||
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| Re: Pinned tourney hand, G Rooster, 17. Sep 2003 12:16 | ||
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| Jav, A couple things you say are right on, I think. "Aggression is good, but you need to be selective in when you use it, and know when to back off" applies best here. Once in, I should have backed off on the double call to my flop bet and hoped for a free or cheap card. Also, position is big in NL, and I didn't have it. But, I don't know that I agree that you can't ever play 50/50s. Hypothetically, if I correctly figure me and one other as even, then it's a break-even bet to start, and if I read him to be anything less than a calling station, I've got a good chance to push him out. Of course, if I misread, I could lose however much muscle I throw at him. On the whole, I think more players back off a medium hand in this case than either call down or go over the top, so it's a moneymaker. But, yes the key is getting a good read on the cards and your guy. If you can't do that, then play it safe. Thanks for your thoughts. --GR on 17. Sep 2003 11:04 Jav wrote: > I don't think you want to play many hands in NLHE where you just don't know if you're best or > not. Regardless of your holding or the board, if you think the chance of you having the best > hand is around 50/50 you need to get out. You could make a bluff at it, but when you are > called you have to shut down. It's just not worth the gamble. Aggression is good, but you > need to be selective in when you use it, and know when to back off. > > In my opinion this is a situation where being too aggressive will not pay off often enough to > make it a good play. You had two people call your flop bet. Not just one. They called your > bet with something, and it could just have easily been one of them slowplaying a set or another > trap hand. | ||
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| Re: Pinned tourney hand, kennycatkiller, 19. Sep 2003 10:46 | ||
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| Why would you limp in with this holding from early position to start with? The real danger is that you will catch a piece of the flop (which you did) and therefore go further into the deep waters. How could you have called the pre-flop raise, even after limping in? | ||
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| Re: Pinned tourney hand, Grateful Rooster, 19. Sep 2003 12:02 | ||
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| I was in MP with no action to me, so I limped to fish for a cheap draw. Called the raise putting the other 2 on high hands where a low, kind flop would put me in good standing. I view both as marginal actions made out of a feel for a tight table that could be bullied. I probably wouldn't make those calls very often. I fell into my biggest trap, though, and went too far. | ||
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