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Server Time: 8/29/2008 9:24:43 PM PACIFIC |
 Need a Plumber!!, spartan51, 15. Sep 2003 10:37 | ||
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| Since moving up to $3/$6 about 8 weeks ago, I am beating the game, but not at the same BB rate I was at lower levels. I think there are two "leaks" in my game that are costing me. 1. Not value betting on the river enough when I think I have a winner. Usually some scare card pops up and I just check out. 2. Not folding top pair/top kicker or top two pair even though I think I am beat. Any fixes that you expert "plumbers" can suggest to plug these leaks? Thanks to all. | ||
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| Re: Need a Plumber!!, stdioh, 15. Sep 2003 10:55 | ||
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| Your first leak isn't a leak. It is often a mistake to bet the river with a good hand (not a great hand) and it is something that you need to learn not to do. If you're holding top pair, top kicker and a player has been calling you down the whole way only for the river to bring a scare card that completes a flush and a straight, why bet it? Yes, if he didn't hit a monster then your hand is the best, but what will you get called with? The only way you'll get called is if he holds top pair with a worse kicker ... and even there it depends on the player. If he was drawing and didn't get there, you'll make no additional money. If he did get there by hitting his kicker, he'll call or raise you and if he got there on a monster he'll definitely raise you - or maybe he's set you up for a checkraise. Now you'll lose 1 or 2 bets when you're not good, but only gain 0 or 1 bet when you are good. You see why this is a place to only bet when you're really sure that you have the best hand or when you're bluffing. Since there are no more cards to come, you don't have to worry about giving a free card either, so you're only betting for value. Second, knowing when to fold means knowing your opponents. You need to be able to identify the rocks, the calling stations, and the maniacs. If you're holding top pair top kicker and a maniac raises you on the turn, you can't fold. If you're holding top pair top kicker and a normal solid player raises you, then you might look at your redraws, the size of the pot, your read, etc, and think about calling or folding. If a calling station (loose passive) raises you on the turn then you may as well throw away anything short of the second nuts or a draw to a monster. And the same goes for a rock (tight passive). Basically when agressive players bet there is a lot you can call them down with - same with frequent bluffers, but when passive players bet, beware. If you know the difference, you can start "playing the players instead of the cards" and you'll do much better than you currently do. | ||
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| Re: Need a Plumber!!, jaustin, 15. Sep 2003 11:04 | ||
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| Great advice, I'll add another reason for not betting the river: If you're first to act and check, you'll often get players to try and bluff you out thinking the scare card will chase you away or that you both missed your draws and they can buy the pot. Betting generally leads to worse hands folding and better hands raising, while checking will sometimes win you an extra bet and never costs you one. | ||
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| Re: Need a Plumber!!, Boftx, 15. Sep 2003 11:23 | ||
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| Doesn't checking on the river have an additional advantage that you get to see the other player's cards on a showdown? This is referring to online play. IF your river bet would cause all to fold, I think it might be useful to check instead and learn what others stayed with. | ||
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| Re: Need a Plumber!!, spartan51, 15. Sep 2003 12:34 | ||
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| Thanks stidioh, Great advice. However, I do play online (party) where it makes it more difficult to get a read on players given the number of players. I also play 3 tables at once which I know hurts my ability to "play the players and not the cards." I just started using Pokertracker which might be a tool to help identify the solid players. Would you or any of the other pros offer up any other suggestions given the fact that is is online play? | ||
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| Bet the river, Barry T, 15. Sep 2003 17:23 | ||
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| Hi. More money is lost not betting the river than any other leak. A scare card almost aways hits. And sometime you lose when you bet. But the overwhelming number of times you bet, you either win an extra bet or the opponent folds (Note: I am talking about heads-up and sometimes two-opponent pots on the river. If more than that are involved, betting a sxcare card may well be an error). When they fold, tyhey do not see your hand, and this provides them with an incentive to look you up later. In my seminar "Ten Costly Hold'em Errors", failure to bet the river is TWO of them. And yes I will do a coluimn on this in a few months. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Bet the River, mkpoker, 15. Sep 2003 17:33 | ||
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| I agree with you 100%. This is a leak in my game, and I've been focusing hard on fixing it. In my view (and I'm speaking only for myself here), I think the cause of this leak is a tendency for players to suddenly check their greed on the river, and take the proverbial "bird in the hand." When the river card comes on a good hand for me, I have an internal dialog that goes something like this: "Yippee, I think I'm going to win this pot...and it's about time. It's a big pot and I'll be very happy to stack up all those chips. But what if so-and-so has been slowplaying 3s4s (or whatever the two perfect cards are). Now he checked. If I bet, he could check-raise and then I'll be in a real pickle. Boy will I feel dumb if I get trapped on the river. If I bet and he doesn't have perfect-perfect, he'll probably fold anyway, so I don't really have much to gain. So let's not get greedy. Check it right back at him, take this pot and be happy!" I know that's an ass-backward way to think (and I'm fighting it!), but I suspect it's why this leak is so common. In a nutshell, instead of thinking of that river bet as 1 solid BB, players think of it as "gravy" on a nice win. | ||
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| Re: Bet the river, Andrew Wells, 15. Sep 2003 17:53 | ||
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| First or last position, and whether you have been the aggressor - may be the two elements that some players fail to consider when deciding not to value bet on the river. | ||
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| Re: Bet the river, shorn, 16. Sep 2003 05:49 | ||
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| Interesting point Barry, and one that I know I am guilty of. Having been schooled in the S&M school that you shouldn't bet the river unless you think (I believe the % is 54%) you will win when you are CALLED. I look forward to your article on this subject and if you could give a few specific hand examples of your idea, I know that would help me to discern which situations that this applies to and which it does not. Thanks, Steve | ||
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| Re: Bet the river, Eihli, 16. Sep 2003 07:08 | ||
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| In the low limit games that I've been playing I notice very many people check-raise the river and it feels soooo good when I check them and make their "tricky" play cost them a few bets. | ||
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| Re: Bet the river, Eihli, 16. Sep 2003 08:10 | ||
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| Here is a perfect example, this just happened. I get QQ and raise with 4 callers flop: Td8s2c sb checks, bb checks, UTG bets, i raise, sb folds, bb calls, utg calls turn: 9h bb checks, UTG checks, I bet, bb calls, UTG folds river: Kh bb checks, (i would normally check here but remember this post) so I bet, bb raises, i call he has 67 for the turned straight This happens way to often for me to believe not betting the river is a leak in my game. I think it's a strong point. | ||
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| Re: Bet the river, Eihli, 16. Sep 2003 08:14 | ||
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| Or maybe I should be folding when check-raised on the river in this situation. | ||
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| Re: Bet the river, shorn, 16. Sep 2003 08:16 | ||
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| I think I would have checked this one down since there are multiple ways that you can be beaten. This is why I will be interested in seeing hand examples from Barry as to when this applies and when it doesn't. | ||
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| Re: Bet the river, Jav, 16. Sep 2003 13:47 | ||
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| I think this is turning into a very good thread. I don't think I play the river optimally as well, and would be very interested in hearing specific examples as to when to bet the river with a non-nut hand. | ||
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| Re: Need a Plumber!!, Roy Cooke, 16. Sep 2003 07:03 | ||
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| Hi ....Many players feel they have made an error when they bet the river and lose.......If you never bet a losing hand on the river, you are betting too tight.....You only need to be a slight favorite WHEN CALLED to make the bet correct. Many players automatically pay off....That mentality is a mistake.....Make a judgment of the propensity of your hand to be good and compare it to the pot size....If you think the pot is giving you an overlay....Make the call.....Similiar to betting ....If you are not losing most of your river calls (In limit), then you are calling too tight....In limit the pot is almost always laying you a price to call. Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke > Since moving up to $3/$6 about 8 weeks ago, I am beating the game, but not at > the same BB rate I was at lower levels. I think there are two "leaks" in my game > that are costing me. > > 1. Not value betting on the river enough when I think I have a winner. Usually > some scare card pops up and I just check out. > > 2. Not folding top pair/top kicker or top two pair even though I think I am > beat. > > Any fixes that you expert "plumbers" can suggest to plug these leaks? > > Thanks to all. | ||
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| Re: Need a Plumber!!, spartan51, 16. Sep 2003 08:51 | ||
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| Hey Barry T. & Roy, Thanks for the advice. I felt this was a "leak" in my gane and I now will be betting more on the river when I think I have the winner. (Sorry, stidioh, but I think I will defer to their advice.) Barry & Roy, Any advice on my second "leak"? That is, not folding top pair, top kicker or top two pair when I am raised on the turn. I think I am paying people off way too much. When playing online, is it a plus EV play to always fold top pair, top kicker to a raise on the turn? Thanks again. | ||
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| Re: Need a Plumber!!, Mark Barnett II, 16. Sep 2003 09:57 | ||
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| ok im reading what i think are apples and oranges in this post, to me there is a huge difference between acting first and acting last on a hand like whats being described. if your first to act then what stdioh was saying makes sense, namely what % of the hands your opponent will reasonably have will they call and you still win versus the % of hands they will call or raise and beat you, and if you check and they take a stab at the pot you catch them and if both check you should win a large % of the time. if your second to act then betting is probably the better idea as inducing a bluff cant happen and you can eliminate some of his stronger hands that he would have bet with *but not strong enough for a check raise* | ||
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