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Server Time: 10/11/2008 1:04:46 PM PACIFIC |
 Poker as a job and hourly rate, Boftx, 15. Sep 2003 09:53 | ||
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| For sake of discussion I will assume the usual 1 BB/hr for this question, knowing full well that number depends highly on the limits, etc. If you treat poker as a job, with an 8hr day, do your play the whole 8hrs every day or do you take off early if you hit your mark of 8 - 10 BB in a short amount of time? or stay at it hoping for a bigger bundle and possible downfall? What if you hit a really big one? On a related topic, how much are you willing to lose in one day before calling it quits? | ||
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| Re: Poker as a job and hourly rate, stdioh, 15. Sep 2003 10:03 | ||
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| First of all, you can't take off when you "make enough money for the day," because there will be lots of days where you lose and lose. Likewise, when the game is really good, you're going to have to put more time in because there will be dry patches. If you want to be a pro player and always show up at 9:00 am on weekdays, leave at 5:00 pm, and take off early when you make your 10BB, you're going to be broke in a couple of weeks. What you need to do is play when the games are good, step away when they aren't good, and show up during the best playing times. For instance, a lot of people think that the best time to play is always on the weekend, and while this might be true in Vegas I find the best time for me is the early weekday mornings. Why? Well, it's rather simple in my case. If I show up at 3:00 am on a Tuesday, who's there? Well, as I start my session there are 3 types there: truckers, lucky fish, and sleepy pros. The truckers are there looking for something to do and are pretty universally bad players. The lucky fish are the guys who were there last night at 8:00 and got hit over the head hard for 5 solid hours, then decided they couldn't leave now and are going to bleed back everything they won over the next few hours. The sleepy pros are the guys who are determined to stay at the table until they get all of this guy's money, but they're at the end of a 15 hour session and can barely keep their eyes open let alone play their best poker. As the lucky fish bust out, the sleepy pros go home and the game gets really small around 5:00, but then in come the pensioners. You'll get heaps of old folks wandering into the casino after they finish their McDonalds breakfast, so you start to see them by 5:30 or so. They have nothing to do, wake up early, and come into the card room for 3 hours of action before getting on with their days. By the time it is 8:00 you get all manner of people, including pros who start their day then and things tend to normalize, but for that window from 3:00-8:00 that is *my* 5 hours. Then I go to my day job. | ||
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| Re: Poker as a job and hourly rate, Andrew Wells, 15. Sep 2003 17:09 | ||
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| I don't use the play eight hours and go approach, nor do I necessarily leave if I'm ahead 20-30 big bets. I'll get out of any game if realize I've made two strategic mistakes in an hour. This has nothing to do with a hand I might have played before the flop if it wasn't for the raise from a good player, that would have given me the nuts. I'll get out of a game if it looks like I'm going to have to win more than a few pots to have a decent day. This means I'm going to be paying rake on pots at the maximum percentage where I'm not getting much postflop action. I'll get out of a game when just about everyone is making correct tactical raises. In this case I would need help from the deck, because I'm not going to be outplaying anyone as much. Quitting ahead is something I do strictly by feel. Maybe the pulse of the table has changed, or opponents are playing back at me too much. Maybe open seats are filling with the type of players I don't want to adjust for. The cards I'm getting are sometimes a factor, maybe I'm tired of mucking everything preflop for the past five dealers. This isn't going to tilt me or cause me to play a weak hand out of position, but sometimes enough is enough. In order to insure you have a bankroll for the tomorrows, never play simply to "get even". There is no such thing as "get even", that's an illusion reinforced by having to walk out the door at some point. Leaving the card room plus or minus is secondary to the main objective of making fewer mistakes than everyone else. | ||
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| Re: Poker as a job and hourly rate, bkholdem, 14. Dec 2003 20:05 | ||
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| on 15. Sep 2003 17:09 Andrew Wells wrote: > I don't use the play eight hours and go approach, nor do I necessarily leave if I'm > ahead 20-30 big bets. I'll get out of any game if realize I've made two strategic > mistakes in an hour. This has nothing to do with a hand I might have played before > the flop if it wasn't for the raise from a good player, that would have given me the > nuts. I'll get out of a game if it looks like I'm going to have to win more than a > few pots to have a decent day. This means I'm going to be paying rake on pots at the > maximum percentage where I'm not getting much postflop action. I'll get out of a game > when just about everyone is making correct tactical raises. In this case I would need > help from the deck, because I'm not going to be outplaying anyone as much. Quitting > ahead is something I do strictly by feel. Maybe the pulse of the table has changed, > or opponents are playing back at me too much. Maybe open seats are filling with the > type of players I don't want to adjust for. The cards I'm getting are sometimes a > factor, maybe I'm tired of mucking everything preflop for the past five dealers. This > isn't going to tilt me or cause me to play a weak hand out of position, but sometimes > enough is enough. In order to insure you have a bankroll for the tomorrows, never > play simply to "get even". There is no such thing as "get even", that's an illusion > reinforced by having to walk out the door at some point. Leaving the card room plus > or minus is secondary to the main objective of making fewer mistakes than everyone > else. He called you a 'typical grinder'. When I was reading your post it was inspiring. This was the best post I've read here thus far. I could learn a lot from you. Hope to keep reading your posts. Thanks. | ||
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| Re: Poker as a job and hourly rate, Squaliform, 15. Sep 2003 18:14 | ||
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| You sound like a typical grinder. | ||
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| Re: Poker as a job and hourly rate, Mark Gregorich, 15. Sep 2003 23:32 | ||
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| Unless I have a prior time commitment, I never base my decision on when to leave a game solely on whether I'm winning or losing. I also don't set win, loss, or time limits on myself. Basically, I try to play as long as I can when I feel I have an edge in a game, and I try to be as objective as possible regarding when my edge has disappeared (generally this happens when I'm stuck, tired, and some of the worst players in the game have left and been replaced by strong fresh players). I don't try to "lock up" a win in a game. As a result, I turn more profitable sessions into losing ones than many of the other pros I play with, but I have a chance to score some big sessions too. It always amazes me when players I feel should know better will quit unbelievably good games when they've reached their set goal for the day, even if they've only been there a short time. Of course, these are the same guys who'll play all night trying to get even. Its all about the big picture and the long run - play when you have an edge, and quit when you don't. The bigger your edge, the more important it is to stay. If you can leave a game stuck when you feel your edge shrinking, knowing you played good poker that day, then you made money for the day - it shows up in your bottom line at the end of the year. Mark | ||
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| Re: Poker as a job and hourly rate, 4 POKER, 16. Sep 2003 02:06 | ||
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| on 15. Sep 2003 23:32 Mark Gregorich wrote: > Unless I have a prior time commitment, I never base my decision on when to leave a > game solely on whether I'm winning or losing. I also don't set win, loss, or time > limits on myself. Basically, I try to play as long as I can when I feel I have an > edge in a game, and I try to be as objective as possible regarding when my edge has > disappeared (generally this happens when I'm stuck, tired, and some of the worst > players in the game have left and been replaced by strong fresh players). > > I don't try to "lock up" a win in a game. As a result, I turn more profitable > sessions into losing ones than many of the other pros I play with, but I have a > chance to score some big sessions too. It always amazes me when players I feel > should know better will quit unbelievably good games when they've reached their set > goal for the day, even if they've only been there a short time. Of course, these are > the same guys who'll play all night trying to get even. > > Its all about the big picture and the long run - play when you have an edge, and > quit when you don't. The bigger your edge, the more important it is to stay. If you > can leave a game stuck when you feel your edge shrinking, knowing you played good > poker that day, then you made money for the day - it shows up in your bottom line at > the end of the year. > > Mark > I call that the... "Eat like a bird, (+$) Shit like an elephant"(-$) syndrome. Players (even really good players) will leave a game when they're winning, no matter how much potential there can really be for them to earn even *more* money, all because they want to lock up a win. But they are the same people who will sit for hours on end (even if they're tired, steamin', what have you), just to try and get back the money that they lost for that session. If you're not going to stick around for the big wins when there's really good potential for it, then you should never allow yourself to stick around for the big losses either. (You'd only be allowing yourself to keep your 'winning sessions' to stay at a minimum, with a good posibility to maximize your losses *even more* on your losing sessions due to playing tired, stuck & steamin', headache, etc.). You shouldn't leave a game when all of the +'s are with you, and you should never stay in a game when all your -'s are present. I feel that as long as I'm playing my best, and the game really suits my style of play.....and have not strayed from that, then I will play until I get tired or otherwise. If I *do* start to play anything from what I feel to be good poker playing, then I 'will' quit, because THAT is when you can reallly become a stone-cold sucker......no matter how well you "usually" play. If you have the discipline to get up a loser *knowing* that you should get up, then you will in all actuality have just made money. I agree with Mark wholeheartedly on that. The big picture. It's all about knowing that one great winning session or five losing sessions mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. When you play against weaker opponents, which is all about good game selection...and you yourself have many edges; (discipline and money management included).......that is what will separate the winning player from the others. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Poker as a job and hourly rate, Boftx, 16. Sep 2003 00:34 | ||
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| Thank you all for your replies. They tend to confirm my own feelings on it. I usually quit after I have made a significant portion of my buy-in and have started slipping back, i.e. a 75% increase and have slipped back to 50%, or if I slide way down and have clawed my way back to even or a few dollars ahead. I usually buy in at 25 times the BB. I play the 1/2 - 3/6 games usually with a fair number of $10 SnGs. My normal goal is to make at least $25 - $50 per day to feed my wife's bingo habit. :-) I eventually plan on moving up to the higher limits when I feel I can consistenly beat those tables as I do the 2/4 games I seem to be best at. Once again, thank you. | ||
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| Re: Poker as a job and hourly rate, Roy Cooke, 16. Sep 2003 06:37 | ||
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| Hi Boftx Read Mark Gregorich's post on this issue....It is A+! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 15. Sep 2003 09:53 Boftx wrote: > For sake of discussion I will assume the usual 1 BB/hr for this question, > knowing full well that number depends highly on the limits, etc. > > If you treat poker as a job, with an 8hr day, do your play the whole 8hrs every > day or do you take off early if you hit your mark of 8 - 10 BB in a short amount > of time? or stay at it hoping for a bigger bundle and possible downfall? What > if you hit a really big one? > > On a related topic, how much are you willing to lose in one day before calling > it quits? > | ||
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