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Server Time: 9/5/2008 12:07:02 AM PACIFIC |
 Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, Lottery Larry, 14. Sep 2003 21:02 | ||
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| or doesn't the following apply to anyone on this site? http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=7rf9mvckstjhk0s52gb499216n0h1ft4ho%404ax.com "The mainstream has been poluted by so-called college education, when it is clearly impossible that anyone who graduated from any mainstream public U.S. university in the past 20 years has any intellect whatsoever. They are all poisoned and dangerous. Prunes, all -- intellectually dried and wrinkled." i guess i am one of many idiots, then. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, kimmi690, 14. Sep 2003 21:38 | ||
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| Thank God I went to school in Europe, LOL | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, Angel, 14. Sep 2003 23:33 | ||
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| Actually, I think there is a grain of truth in the quote you supplied. Once upon a time in this country a high school education meant something. As education dropped on the priority list within the school systems, the diploma meant less and less. Employers began requiring college to ensure a basic education. As college became more and more necessary to insure employment, college requirements dropped lower to become more inclusive. This isn't to say that one can't get a fine education in a public college; it is there for the taking. Unfortunately, not everyone takes it and they are graduating nonetheless. If you choose, you can find the classes which offer 25% of your grade on attendence, 25% on turning in homework on time and multiple choice tests consisting of A's, B's, C's and D's. So if you show up and turn your homework in every day and get 25% of your answers correct on your tests by guessing - you've got a 62.5% which is almost certainly a passing grade after the curve. When you can get through 'higher' education like this - it is certain that its value drops. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, johnph77, 15. Sep 2003 05:46 | ||
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| I'm not so sure that that was what was meant by the excerpt from the post, nor did the reply from Mr. Caro provide clarification. You make a valid point in saying that a college education is more necessary today in obtaining a decent paying job than it was in the past, but the job requirements over that period of time has changed as well. For instance, you wouldn't want an automobile mechanic whose technical education ended in the 1960's, say, working on your computer-controlled, air-conditioned car, nor is the local ex-typewriter repairman capable of working on your computer. But there HAS been a general dumbing down of the public educational system in the USA, and it hasn't been confined to the last 20 or 30 years, either. I once read a list of questions asked a junior high school geography class in Kansas in the 1900's and was astonished by my ignorance. But there has been an acceleration of the dumb-down process in the last few decades, and I blame social pressure for it. I worked for the Federal government for over 25 years and found college graduates who could not assemble a written coherent sentence, for goodness sakes, and not all of them went to public colleges, either. I believe part of that comes from the social pressure to advance students through the educational system regardless of what they learn because of the stigma attached to grade retention. I certainly don't feel insulted..... | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, timmer, 15. Sep 2003 08:51 | ||
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| Poor , Dumb ,People, don't you realize you only get out of something what your willing to put into it. Be that high school, college, or basket weaving. If you didn't get anything out of your HS or college education your either brilliant and a genus who already knows *everything* or you didn't apply yourself. I am betting on the latter. Shit Can the transference and place blame where it belongs, Squarely on your shoulders. Now get back to telling me how all online poker is always crooked. timmer | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, timmer, 15. Sep 2003 08:59 | ||
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| In addition don't be a spoon-fed moron. question everything, even your own sensibilities. on 15. Sep 2003 08:51 timmer wrote: > Poor , Dumb ,People, > > don't you realize you only get out of something what your willing to put into it. Be > that high school, college, or basket weaving. If you didn't get anything out of your HS or > college education your either brilliant and a genus who already knows *everything* or you > didn't apply yourself. I am betting on the latter. Shit Can the transference and place > blame where it belongs, Squarely on your shoulders. > > Now get back to telling me how all online poker is always crooked. > > timmer | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, Mike Caro, 14. Sep 2003 23:48 | ||
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| on 14. Sep 2003 21:02 Lottery Larry wrote: > or doesn't the following apply to anyone on this site? > > http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=7rf9mvckstjhk0s52gb > 499216n0h1ft4ho%404ax.com > > "The mainstream has been poluted by so-called college > education, when it is clearly impossible that anyone who graduated > from any mainstream public U.S. university in the past 20 years has > any intellect whatsoever. They are all poisoned and dangerous. Prunes, all -- > intellectually dried and wrinkled." > > i guess i am one of many idiots, then. Hi, Larry -- It applies to my wife, almost all my closest friends, my dearest relatives, their kids, and more. If you go to a public American university, you probably will get intellectually wrinkled by a one-sided outlook. It is your job, thereafter, to undo the damage. I've written about this before. See this one, at my Poker1.com and you might be even more "insulted." :-) http://www.poker1.com/newsmanager/templates/mculib_articles.asp?articleid=163&zoneid=6 (or, if that doesn't work, just go to www.poker1.com, click Mike Caro University of Poker, then Articles in the MCU Library and scroll down to "Why Sixties People Can't Win at Poker." Of course, I've expressed exactly the opposite view as well. I speak out of both sides of my mouth, depending on my emotional focus at the moment, and have spent my life going back and forth between liberal and conservative. I'm presently conservative, except about personal freedoms and social conduct (other than unethical conduct, which I've detested throughout all stages of my life). By the way, the RGP post alluded to -- while sincere in some of the viewpoints - was satiric, and should be taken in context of all the other posts and exchanges involving me and my visit to RGP today. It was meant to pound home the point that the forum I once championed as a friendly, family place cannot tolerate civil discussion any more. It is the home of flakes, hatefulness, and a few hangers-on from the old days. For years, I have made unusual posts there. Check the Google archives. I used to promote that Usenet forum (not a web site) and even delivered two keynote speeches to its yearly gatherings. But, something terrible happened there -- and we won't let it happen here. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, WilliamS, 15. Sep 2003 07:36 | ||
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| Hey mike, I'm just downhill from you in Arkansas; welcome to the "country" (cue dueling banjos from the choir) Will | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, Mike Caro, 15. Sep 2003 09:55 | ||
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| on 15. Sep 2003 07:36 WilliamS wrote: > Hey mike, > I'm just downhill from you in Arkansas; welcome to the "country" (cue dueling banjos from > the choir) > Will Hi, Will -- That's cool. As I type, I'm midway between Branson and Eureka Springs, about a mile from the northern Arkansas border on Table Rock Lake. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, noiseboy, 15. Sep 2003 10:43 | ||
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| Hey Mike, As a musician, I have to take the other side of this battle. The only reason people "steal" music online, is that they are tired of being robbed by the record labels and distribution companies. A cd only costs about a dollar to make, yet they charge nearly $20 for one in a store. The reason is price-fixing and monopoly-type business practices. An actual artist will be lucky if he sees any profit from an album, even if it sells a million copies. Everybody thinks rock stars are millionaires, but many aren't even making ends meet due to the usurious contracts the labels consider standard. Tom Petty, for instance, was flat broke at the same time his album was flying out of stores and his shows were selling out, and he had to sue his label to see dime one. The fact is it's robbery, pure and simple. The labels are loan sharks, as artists have to pay back the $200/hr studio time and every other expense the label incurs. The artist is the VERY LAST person to ever get paid. How many movies would get made if a director had to pay back every cent when a movie flopped? What if price fixing made it cost $30 to see a movie? Personally, I think if the labels spent more time making their product better and more affordable, and less time suing 14 yr old girls, they might actually improve sales. Anyway, sometimes stealing is wrong, but one thing I learned from Robin Hood, is that when you steal from thieves for a good purpose, that stealing can be morally correct. I think the sooner we break the stranglehold the big labels have on what we hear, and the sooner artists are freed from the yolk of big label indentured servitude, the better off the music world will be. Just my two cents. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, stdioh, 15. Sep 2003 09:53 | ||
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| I download music, but I'm not a criminal. I live in Canada where our copyright laws allow you to copy as much music as you want as long as it is for private use. Yes, we have to pay an extra $0.77 per CD, which is a major hastle, but I can live with it. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, ManicStarSeed, 15. Sep 2003 11:48 | ||
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| on 14. Sep 2003 21:02 Lottery Larry wrote: > or doesn't the following apply to anyone on this site? >... > "The mainstream has been polluted by so-called college > education, when it is clearly impossible that anyone who graduated > from any mainstream public U.S. university in the past 20 years has > any intellect whatsoever. They are all poisoned and dangerous. Prunes, all -- I agree. I was born in 1969 and received my college education from the SUNY system. That is the public universities of NY. I grew up immersed in the media of the 70s 80s and 90s. I am not as disgusted as Mike is regarding squiggilywigs, just saddened. I have only a small handful of friends that are looking to truly succeed. Most are willing to just truge along with (a little above) minimum wage jobs and no real direction. The disillusionment is so perverse, it is a whole different illusion. It is darker and more scary. I did not even learn how to rationally think until AFTER my formal education. Only now do I thank my folks for forcing me into a an All boys Catholic HS. Oddly enough, they did teach me to think for myself, not rationally, but spiritually, morally and personally. I have worked hard to strike a sane balance in my life. Part of it was realizing how the media and culture has been slowly emasculating and demonizing men. I have referred a friend or two to Mike's "die hippies Die" article because it is an affirmation of all that I have seen. I call it "Hippy BS" I am an avid gamer. I often play to have fun. The game and playing is all that matters. If I lose I want to put up a fight. Then there is gambling, Losing really hurts and winning money is all that matters. I put my money up in a game, I play to win. The money makes it matter. Winning becomes important, more important because loosing it doesn't matter doesn't make sense. Now the squiggilywig concept of cooperation makes sense in context like planting a field. Competition is good for the soul. It pushes us to improve. Granted large polluting corporate dishonesty are really problems, but wanting to win and make money is an honest and noble pursuit. Mss | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, noiseboy, 15. Sep 2003 12:49 | ||
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| I disagree that there is liberal bias in colleges around this country, at least not in the ones I've been to. Overall, colleges are a giant institution, much like the government itself. If you think colleges are breeding hippie communists or something, I suggest you take a look at UC Berkeley. It was once a hotbed of radical thinking, now it's mostly a place where people go so they can get out with a name degree and make money. There are a lot more business majors than there are African American studies majors, that's for sure. Not only that, if you look at who the tenured professors are at ANY major university, and at least 80% are white males over the age of 50. Anyway, I think college is supposed to be a place where you learn to think for yourself, and my experience overall was that most of my classes had no political bias at all, in either direction. I had exactly two professors who were guilty of indoctrination. One was a conservative ex-Marine prof of Poly Science, who graded me down for being liberal. One was a femi-Nazi who gave a maximum of a B to men no matter what. I think that both professors were reprehensible, but hardly representative of higher education in general. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, shorn, 15. Sep 2003 12:56 | ||
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| I don't want to sound like a jerk, but since (IMO) most of the political bias in academia is liberal, don't you think it's possible that you felt there wasn't any bias because you are liberal as well (as stated in your post)? We often gravitate to what we are comfortable with and if it sounds correct and logical in our own minds, we don't view it as biased. Again, I am not trying to be a butthead here, so if am over the line let me know. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, noiseboy, 15. Sep 2003 13:26 | ||
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| Well you could argue that I would be unable to detect liberal bias, since I am liberal, but I think that would be wrong. I know any intelligent conservative can or should be able to watch a show like the O'Reilly Factor and be like, "Wow, this guy is really biased, he treats conservative guests with kid gloves, and he yells like a maniac at any of the liberal guests." Just like, since I'm a liberal, I was able to realize when I had a prof who gave me a B because I'm a white male, even though my girlfriend at the time who was in the class got an A even though she didn't work half as hard. I can also recognize that by daring to defy a professor who had a basic philosophy of "War is good", I was going to get a lower grade. Anyway, my point is that overall, with the exception of these two, most of my classes had little to do with politics of any sort and were, hence, completely unbiased in either direction. Mostly just read a lot of books and dissected them critically, so I think I'm a pretty good judge of bias in either direction. For example, I get the Nation, and yeah, it's pretty damn biased towards a liberal viewpoint. It's about as biased towards a liberal viewpoint as the Wall Street Journal is to a right wing viewpoint. Personally, I probably get just as much out of reading things I disagree with as those I might be in agreement with and think you need both. Mostly, in college, I read a lot of books, and learned a lot. I became a liberal mostly because I didn't agree with Reagan on anything and thought he was ruining the country and that had little to do with anything I ever learned in school. I wasn't very political before that. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, shorn, 15. Sep 2003 13:45 | ||
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| Fair enough. We agree to disagree on the issue then (I won't get into Reagan as by now you probably know where I stand on that one), and that is one thing that makes this forum and free societies everywhere great. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, GoBears, 15. Sep 2003 13:06 | ||
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| on 15. Sep 2003 12:49 noiseboy wrote: > If you think colleges are breeding hippie communists or something, I suggest you > take a look at UC Berkeley. It was once a hotbed of radical thinking, now it's mostly a > place where people go so they can get out with a name degree and make money. As a Berkeley alum, I can't disagree with you . . .much. I went there long after the days of Mario Savio and the protests of the late 60's. But, I still take great pride in obtaining a 4 year degree from there, in 4 years mind you - not the normal 5 or 6 as it has become. The best thing about that education was the life experience of walking into a class and understanding that the professors did not care that I was a high school QB (I wasn't) or the valedictorian of my graduating class (again, no). I could just as easily fail and be booted from the school. My success was predicated on MY effort. Nothing more or less. What better lesson could a snot nosed 18 year old learn? Life owes you nothing just because your parents forked over the tuition. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, shorn, 15. Sep 2003 13:08 | ||
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| Amen to that brother... on 15. Sep 2003 13:06 GoBears wrote: > My success was predicated on MY effort. Nothing more or less. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, noiseboy, 15. Sep 2003 14:06 | ||
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| I didn't mean it as a diss on UC Berkeley, I think it's still a great school. There is still some activism going on there, whether it be the young Republicans or the Students for Justice in Palestine, my point is that this whole stereotype that our colleges are indoctrinating people into liberalism, if not Socialism and Communism, is a complete crock perpetuated by neocon propaganda. Also, most people don't go to school with much interest in politics at all, the majority students want a degree so they can get a job. Most want an education as well, but if you educate yourself outside of an institution it doesn't come with a piece of paper which will open doors for you. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, GoBears, 15. Sep 2003 14:46 | ||
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| Noiseboy, I didn't take your comments as an insult to Cal. Hell, their decision not to allow the fire trucks in the city to fly the American flag after 9/11 almost made me puke. My primary focus is that many institutes of higher learning offer you a diploma that says you're prepared to be an aeronautical engineer, economist, or an art history professor, but you may still be a dipshit of a human being. Learning the lesson that people didn't care if I succeeded or failed was more useful to me than a wall full of sheepskins. It actually helps at the poker table too, where (contrary to Mike's wishes for Straight Flushes) everyone hopes I get dealt 2-7o all night long. My failure is their success. Go Bears In homage to Mike - "2-7o for you all tonight if you're at my table" | ||
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| Re: Dont know enough to be insulted, timmer, 17. Sep 2003 15:38 | ||
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| Don't know much about history Don't know much biology Don't know much about science books Don't know much about the french I took But I do know that I- can shoot out a cats eye with an UZI at 110 meters so .......... we'll see who survives. timmer | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, ManicStarSeed, 15. Sep 2003 13:42 | ||
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| 2B honest, My education was neither liberal nor conservative. It was very techincal. I am an engineer. I think that was my education's saving grace. My discussions in college were...How do you up the compression ratio on the turojet engine? With a pressure loss of 1 psi acros the oriface, what is the fow rate? I performed well, my issues with the education system is that I was not exposed to logical and critical thinking. Understanding was not stressed as much, except in a few classes, and only by a few rare teachers. I did very well in those classes learned those lessons well. It was with the liberal arts curriculum that I saw alarming trends. I used to hear many in the system, call it the13th grade. I worked hard for my degree and was amazed at how little i could have done to get a different degree. That is all I have to say about the educatin system. My real issues are with the liberal PC and dumbing down of our culture. I am appalled at how little my step daughter really knows about history, math and writting. I just expect more of myself i think. Either way... Nuff of this cripe... I want to talk poker... Mss | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, noiseboy, 15. Sep 2003 14:37 | ||
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| I studied mostly literature, music and the arts and with a bit of philosophy, anthropology and poly sci thrown in. Most of the literature classes consisted of a heavy reading list, writing papers and discussing what the works mean and why they are worth the time to read, or not worth it. In it's own way, it was probably just as technical as an engineering degree. We discussed theme and metaphor like you would discuss compression or fluid dynamics. Personally, my politics had a lot more to do with what I had inside of me, and how I chose to see the world than any outside influences. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, shorn, 15. Sep 2003 12:07 | ||
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| I agree with Mike for the most part. The higher education system in the US is so wholeheartedly biased to liberal ways of thinking that there is no way that you can come away from 4 years of that type of diatribe without being a little jaded. Harvard is one of the best examples of this...great to have on your resume, but the education there gives you such a skewed view of the actual world that it isn't even worth the paper it is printed on. I also agree with one other poster who blamed the Federal government. I will go so far as to say blame the entire "Politically Correct" movement which by and large has helped to lower the standards everywhere in our country, including what was supposed to be the branch of government to protect EVERYONE's individual rights under the law, our own US Supreme Court. Take the Michigan Law School example: effectively, they have ratified discrimination ("diversity" in their words) as the law of the land which will in effect lower the standard of learning for everyone. Bottom line, everyone loses...even those the law was supposed to help. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, noiseboy, 15. Sep 2003 12:38 | ||
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| I'm not sure what you mean by the "whole Politically Correct" movement. It's not like the idea of viewing people of other races as equal and not calling people by racial slurs is somehow holding back education in this country. If it weren't for liberals, there wouldn't be a public education system, which until recently acted as a "great equalizer". Look at what we pay teachers, who are doing one of the most important jobs in this country. Basically, we spit on them and our nations children. What is holding it back is lack of funding, if you are poor and black, you will likely get a crappy education (if you are poor and white too, for that matter); if you come from a well off family, you will get a good education. The reason is that education is funded mostly through property taxes, and they don't really collect a lot of those in the ghetto. I live in Oakland, CA and I've seen the blight and I've seen the causes. Like any ghetto throughout history, the ghetto is created because the people who live there have no money, no education, and no power, thus it nobody ever does anything to fix it. People without hope, it's hard for them to escape, a very few succeed in getting out, but overall the deck is stacked against them. Personally, I'm not too proud to admit that I would have never made through college if it weren't for my parents financial help. A lot of people don't have that. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, shorn, 15. Sep 2003 12:44 | ||
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| Politically Correct has nothing to do with viewing people of other races and creed's as equal. It has to do with dumbing down the entire system just so that everyone can fit in to it. I happen to not agree with that. There are plenty of examples of people from the ghetto (black, white, asian, whatever) who have made it out by doing what America allows you to do...working your butt off to get ahead. Also, there are plenty of examples of rich kids (again, black, white, asian, whatever) who screw around and go nowhere in their lives. I am not naive enough to think that you are not at all affected by the environment in which you are born. However, I don't buy that as an excuse. What I resent is the fact that our country, in an effort to make things "equal" (which by the way, doesn't necessarily mean fair) is succeeding in finding the lowest common denominator at which NO ONE will fail. This is plain stupid and is the first step towards a socialist society that eventually will be our undoing. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, noiseboy, 15. Sep 2003 13:49 | ||
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| Most socialist countries have MUCH better schools than we do. Basically, look at ANY country in Europe, and you will see that they don't have the educational disparities that we do here. I know that exceptional people have been able to rise above circumstances, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to level the playing field somewhat. The fact is that racism still exists. Statistics on who gets the death penalty show that African Americans are much more likely to get death as opposed to life imprisonment as compared to Caucasions. Not only that, look at who gets home loans, look at who gets jobs. I saw this study where they sent out resumes to a bunch of companies, and had virtually the same qualifications except that some of them had "black sounding" names like Tyrell, for example. I wasn't very surprised when I read that the white sounding names got twice as many responses as the black sounding names. Anyway, I think the whole "liberal colleges" paranoia is overblown out of proportion to the reality, just as is the idea of a "liberal media." Where is this liberal media I keep hearing about? I don't think it really exists. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, shorn, 15. Sep 2003 13:55 | ||
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| Most socialist countries also have tax sustems that are outrageous too. Do you want that? Are you of the opinion that the government is the best option in terms of providing certain services to the public? Like what? No liberal media....that's interesting. Do you honestly think that President Clinton would have gotten the same treatment on the war with Iraq as Bush has? Oh, that;s right...he just sent a few cruise missles into the area and was considered a hero. People need to understand that there is only one thing that will get you ahead in this country and that is good old fashioned, hard work. The probelm with most of the social programs out there is that it encourages people to do the opposite and live off of OTHERS hard work for as long as they can. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, noiseboy, 15. Sep 2003 14:29 | ||
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| Until about a month ago, I think Bush was getting a free pass on the War. There was virtually no debate on the war beforehand in Congress or on Television. Basically, I went to protests which were 99.9% peaceful, and all the media focused on was the .1% who resorted to violence. All the commentary I saw basically portrayed us as violent idiots who didn't know what we were talking about. The media hounded Clinton over the Lewinsky affair, it's amazing he made it through. Personally, I think he is a bit of a scumbag, but not because of anything he did sexually. Here's my take on the media. They only care about ratings and money, they have people who poll public opinion, and then they try to cater to that. For instance, back when the War and Bush were both extremely popular, you didn't hear any criticism of either one. And on the off chance you did, it was like, "here is Jenean Garafalo, isn't she such a stupid anti-american traitor." Now that many Americans are turning against this as they wake up to the fact that they were lied to about the reasons for war and the costs of war, the media is suddenly questioning our strategy, whether there should've been more troops, etc... Personally, I think the mainstream media are a bunch of bloodsucking whores who don't really care one bit for the truth. Maybe we can agree on that much at least. :) | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, noiseboy, 15. Sep 2003 15:28 | ||
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| Yes, the government is the best way of providing certain services. I like to drive on roads, so I don't mind them taxing me to fix them. It's not always a matter of spending more, sometimes it's a matter of how you spend our taxes. Right now we spend more on prisons than we do on schools. Well there you go, if people don't get a decent education, they are more likely to end up in jail. It seems to me that there is something wrong. We are also spending a ton of money on rebuilding infrastructure in Iraq. Call me selfish, but I think that money would've been better spend on OUR infrastructure, particularly fixing the shaky power grid. Now that we are there, we have to finish the job, if we just leave, it will descend into chaos and civil war. Anyway, I'm not a socialist, but I do think that there are some things government needs to take care of. There are millions of children with no healthcare. Since we're not supposed to just let them die, when they need healthcare they get taken to emergency rooms, and someone has to pay, so they pass the exorbitant costs onto those with health insurance. You often have to pay, one way or another, so sometimes it makes sense for the government to try to fix a problem before it balloons into a bigger more expensive problem. Another example is all the people who serve jail time for minor nonviolent crimes. We pay for all of that. What about the War in Iraq, how much is that costing the American economy? We pay for that too. Anyway, I don't want the government running my life any more than you do, but there are some things the government needs to provide, and I think education for all is money well spent. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, shorn, 16. Sep 2003 08:38 | ||
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| Fair points all noise. You and I just disagree on the view of the world and governments role in it. It is my opinion that when the government provides an economic disincentive to work for some, then it has gone too far. I agree on the defense and infrastructure. But frankly, that is all that I receive for the 50 cents of every dollar that I contribute. Most of government spending (IMO again) is quite wasteful and those resources would be better utilized in the private sector where real job creation makes a rising tide that lifts ALL boats. Anyway, good discussion on this. I think hearing both viewpoints every once in a while keeps all of our minds fresh and leads to better thinking in the future. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, noiseboy, 16. Sep 2003 08:47 | ||
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| you wrote: "Anyway, good discussion on this. I think hearing both viewpoints every once in a while keeps all of our minds fresh and leads to better thinking in the future." I'm definitely with you there. I think that a lot of times the liberal vs. conservative thing descends into name calling and nobody learns anything. It's good to know that civil debate of issues is in fact possible. Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled poker. | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, Mike Caro, 15. Sep 2003 23:22 | ||
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| I think we've just established a new Internet standard! The 30 or so replies in this "Not Quite Poker," strongly debated thread represent the only example I've ever seen of such an emotionally charged topic being discussed thoughtfully and passionately AND with respect. Only on UPF can such a thread remain meaningful and polite, while still containing very different, literate viewpoints. If there's an Internet Hall of Fame for Civil Discussion, I'd like to nominate this thread. Thanks, everyone, for allowing us to peek inside your minds, while maintaining the dignity of this forum. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Mike Caro- should we be insulted?, Schuster, 16. Sep 2003 21:25 | ||
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| I'm not much for politics so I didn't poke my head in this thread, but I completely agree. After poking in and out of RGP for a month or so, I had enough. I can't say how glad I am to have found a place where people can discuss things intelligently, and more importantly, disagree in a dignified manner. Lee | ||
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| A reply to Mike Caro, lunchmeat, 17. Sep 2003 01:10 | ||
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| "Meaningful and polite?" "Literate viewpoints?" Who wrote and posted a link to an article subtitled "Die Hippies Die?" There's some meaningful and literate discourse for you. Sarcasm aside, for all Caro's talk of logic he's apparently content to denigrate others as illogical through his own fallacious arguments. Anyone who has studied logic should immediately recognize that Caro is just bashing people he doesn't like (hippies, leftists) with ad-hominem and straw-man arguments. Of course, the fallacies of informal logic are usually taught in colleges, and as Caro tactfully states in his RGP post, "U.S. Universities... are all poisoned and dangerous." So I suppose the age-old fallacies of Aristotle are now null and void in Caro's mind because the majority of college professors may hold left-of-center political views. I would guess the "logic" Mike Caro uses is criticizing hippies is the same sort of logic he used in his Hold 'Em report where his charts advise people to cold call raises with J8s. That is a type of logic I will never understand. In his "Die Hippies Die" essay, Caro claims that non-competitive people are bad poker players because they're afraid to bluff or raise, they call to be sociable, and feel bad about winning lots of money. But you can easily reverse the stereotypes to claim that competitive people make bad poker players. You could say that competitive players will always call your raises and value bets because the can't stand "quitting" a hand, or that their drive to win makes them call too much before the flop. All these generalizations are, of course, nonsense. The logical thing to do is judge a player's ability by how he plays, not by his worldview or political outlook. Competition is very beneficial to economic markets when specific conditions are met. The idea that competition is a cure-all for societies ills, bad poker, or the kids who lost the Little League World Series, however, has little merit. Sorry Mike, but the people cooperating to download music from each other are not budding poker colluders, hippies are no more logical or illogical than any other group of people, and it is almost never right to call a raise with J8s. In the Spirit of Cooperation, lunchmeat | ||
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| Re: A reply to Mike Caro, Mike Caro, 17. Sep 2003 08:28 | ||
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| Hi, Lunchmeat -- I appreciate your taking the time to express your viewpoints (copied below my signature). I'm not sure whether my strong opinion that the hippie culture I grew up inside has proved to be destructive makes me less polite or less literate -- as you suggest. But maybe. And I'm glad you went to the trouble to let me know how you feel about my article. I'm a little bit bothered by your comment about J-8 suited. I certainly agree closely with your perception that it would usually be unprofitable. You might have been confused by seeing that advice for J-8 inside an advanced strategy that had some hands played illogically in order to add deception to the entirety of hands. If that's the case, you might find that reading the explanation that precedes the chart will explain the intent. Anyway, the important thing is that I agree that the hand isn't usually a good one for calling (or even playing). Thanks again for contributing to UPF. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro on 17. Sep 2003 01:10 lunchmeat wrote: > "Meaningful and polite?" "Literate viewpoints?" Who wrote and posted a link to an > article subtitled "Die Hippies Die?" There's some meaningful and literate discourse for > you. > > Sarcasm aside, for all Caro's talk of logic he's apparently content to denigrate others > as illogical through his own fallacious arguments. Anyone who has studied logic should > immediately recognize that Caro is just bashing people he doesn't like (hippies, leftists) > with ad-hominem and straw-man arguments. Of course, the fallacies of informal logic are > usually taught in colleges, and as Caro tactfully states in his RGP post, "U.S. > Universities... are all poisoned and dangerous." So I suppose the age-old fallacies of > Aristotle are now null and void in Caro's mind because the majority of college professors > may hold left-of-center political views. I would guess the "logic" Mike Caro uses is > criticizing hippies is the same sort of logic he used in his Hold 'Em report where his > charts advise people to cold call raises with J8s. That is a type of logic I will never > understand. > > In his "Die Hippies Die" essay, Caro claims that non-competitive people are bad poker > players because they're afraid to bluff or raise, they call to be sociable, and feel bad > about winning lots of money. But you can easily reverse the stereotypes to claim that > competitive people make bad poker players. You could say that competitive players will > always call your raises and value bets because the can't stand "quitting" a hand, or that > their drive to win makes them call too much before the flop. All these generalizations > are, of course, nonsense. The logical thing to do is judge a player's ability by how he > plays, not by his worldview or political outlook. > > Competition is very beneficial to economic markets when specific conditions are met. The > idea that competition is a cure-all for societies ills, bad poker, or the kids who lost > the Little League World Series, however, has little merit. Sorry Mike, but the people > cooperating to download music from each other are not budding poker colluders, hippies are > no more logical or illogical than any other group of people, and it is almost never right > to call a raise with J8s. > > In the Spirit of Cooperation, > > lunchmeat | ||
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