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Server Time: 11/20/2008 8:29:49 AM PACIFIC |
 A couple of strategy questions, Blade, 13. Sep 2003 15:15 | ||
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| I have a couple of questions that I would like some opinions about. #1. When in early position with a mid pp, I have started raising. My thinking is that #1 I want to force out very weak hands that may pay one bet to see a flop and then end up with some weird straight draw on me. #2 If I do hit the set or end with another strong hand I may have created a bigger pot. #3 by raising I may be able to either see a free card after the flop. Is my play here correct or I am wasting 1 bet with the raise. #2. I have been strongly considering sropping Ax S, from my playable hands. It seems just from my limited experience that the amount occassionly won does not make up for the lost bets between the times the flop completely misses or worse when I get 2 but the third suited never comes. My question is would I lose a lot of value by dropping everything below A10s in late position from my playable hands. | ||
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| Re: A couple of strategy questions, mkpoker, 13. Sep 2003 17:50 | ||
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| I'll preface this by admitting that I'm far-far-far from being among the better players on this board...so if 4Poker, Barry, Mike, Roy, Chris or any of the real pros disagree with this...I'd listen to them. That said, I think a raise with a low pair from EP is rarely is a good play. In my experience, it makes sense only at super-tight tables where 1) your raise might pick up the blinds or 2) you're confident that you can out-play 1 or 2 weak opponents after the flop. As I look at it, there are basically three kinds of flops you can face with a low pair. Let's look at them one by one, assuming you hold 6-6. SCENARIO #1: You flop trips. Congratulations. You can be reasonably confident that you have the best hand. Had you raised from EP, you raise would likely have limited the field behind you. Had you limped, you'd have maybe 4 callers instead of 1-2 **But whether there are 2 or 5 people in the pot, you can still be reasonably sure that your trip 6s are the best hand. And with more people in the hand, you stand a better chance of taking in a big pot** So in this case, you'd probably want more people in. Now, you can get aggressive on the flop and turn and take in some big $$. SCENARIO #2: You don't flop trips, and one or more high cards hits on the flop (this will happen most of the time). Because most players play high cards, it's a reasonable certainty that someone flopped a higher pair. A check-fold may be in order for a flop like A-Q-9 or anything similar. Alternatively, you could bet into the field once to test the waters, and if you get callers or raisers, you're probably beat. Again, it really doesn't matter much if you have 2 opponents or 5. If someone leads into this pot (or raises if you bet), you're probably beat. Had you raised pre-flop and then been forced to muck, you'd be folding away 2 bets instead of 1. In this case, that's why you'd regret having made the raise. (In fairness, I admit it matters a little whether you have 2 opponents or 5 with a flop like this. With 5, it's a lock certainty that you're beat. With 2, it's possible they all missed the flop also) If you can convince your opponents that you raised with a premium hand like AA, AK, or KK you still might be able to win against a small number of opponents...but that's a tough sale...especially at "no fold 'em" low limit tables. In my experience, low-limit players will rarely throw away top pair, and there not especially likely to throw away two overcards either. SCENARIO #3: The flop is all rags (say 9 3 5), so it's possible your pair is still the best hand. In this case, your pre-flop raise might prove helpful. If everyone missed...AND you have a tight table image...AND you follow up your pre-flop aggression with post-flop aggression, they might just give up. So looking back...if the flop is Scenario #1 (trips), you'll regret a pre-flop raise because you'll win a smaller pot. If the flop is Scenario #2 (no trips; high cards), you'll probably regret a pre-flop raise, because you'll fold away more bets. Only if the flop is Scenario #3 might a pre-flop raise help you meaningfully. Bottom line: in most cases, it's a bad move. AND ALSO...what if you're reraised pre-flop? That would indicate real trouble. Just my .02--hope it helps. --matt | ||
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| Re: A couple of strategy questions, Frinky, 13. Sep 2003 18:38 | ||
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| I am going to comment on one small point you raised....that is, you may be hoping to see a free card after the flop....Unless the table absolutely fears your play your chances of getting that free card is dramatically less in EP than if you were in LP. Come to think of it I won't limit myself to that one comment.......it is a very good question with no pat answers...if I am in control of a table then I will raise occassionally from EP with 7's, 8's, or 9's to either vary my play or with the intent on making a move at a board that looks scary with few opponents...,but here's the way i think about it: Think one round ahead of your play. You are in excellent position with a flat-call pre-flop to check-raise your opponent(s) if you hit your set or if the board is ugly and uncoordinated. On the other side of the coin, if the board is not scary but comes with say a single Q, K, or A (good possibility) your decision is simple: check-fold. I haven't answered your question but at least it gives you another player's perspective. | ||
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| Re: A couple of strategy questions, Andrew Wells, 13. Sep 2003 20:20 | ||
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| I would only consider a raise with less than 99 from early position if no one had flat called ahead of me, and the game was tight enough that a raise has a reasonable possibility of getting me heads-up against a blind hand. If the game is tight and also aggressive, that could just encourage someone with better position to make it three bets. If the conditions are right for raising with medium pocket pair from early position, then there is probably a better game going anyway. I'd rather fold the pair unless it's a game where many players prefer to limp preflop. I will also virtually never call a raise cold with a pocket pair from any position except the blinds. I'm either going to make it three bets or get out immediately. In a typical game you're not giving up much by folding AXs, particularly if there's a fair amount of preflop raising going on. The time to play it is when there are already several players who have limped, and you are reasonably sure you won't be looking at a raise behind you. | ||
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| Re: A couple of strategy questions, 4 POKER, 14. Sep 2003 01:16 | ||
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| Hi, From EP, (when speaking of medium pocket pairs), I will raise 9-9, and 10-10. (8-8 is usually a raising hand for me), and 7-7 is a little questionable, as it may depend on the aggresiveness of the rest of the table. 6-6 is a limp call, in an average type game, but if the game is filled with a lot of pre-flop raising, than many times I will just fold the hand to start out with. Pairs lower than 6-6 get mucked when I'm in EP as well. I feel (referring to 6-6, 7-7 ), that unless the game is super tight; those hands play better for a limp, rather than a raise. I look at those pairs as a "good way to get in cheaply type hand", and if there's only one raise behind me after I limp in; I will call the extra small bet, and if I flop something really good, then I'll be looking to see how the best way to handle the situation, so I may be able to win a nice pot. If I don't flop good, then I'll fold, and move on. I don't get upset if I don't flop great because I didn't invest that much money in the first place. And for me, that is how I think those pairs will be more profitable for the long haul. Get in cheap....if it flops good for you, try to build a nice pot. If not, then I don't try to make any 'moves' as to try and bully someone out of the pot because I felt that my pair was probably the best hand coming in; *especially* when there's a lot of players in the hand and/or the board is obviously no good for me. *That's* when those pairs will wind up being 'chip-burning' hands if they're played too aggresively every time they come your way. (pre-flop mistakes that might lead to post-flop mistakes). Those "mediumish" pocket pairs should never cost you more than they should, because when players start to overplay those pairs, that is when they will no longer have any value to them at all. Shorthanded games are different, and those pairs can be played more aggressively there; but in a full ten-handed low- to med. limit ring game, where you'll see many more players seeing the flop......your own hand really should be stronger when considering a raise from EP. Q#2......Ax suited. Another questionable holding (imo). I feel, from an EP, and MP, those hands should be mucked most of the time. You also don't want to limp in with them, just to now see the pot get raised, and/or re-raised behind you. They "look" good, only because they are of the same suit, but imho, you really don't make a flush very often, and when I enter a pot with Ax suited, that's the hand I'm looking to make against a large field. In LP, for a cheap price, (but I also want volume on the hand). I will limp in with the hand, and proceed with caution if I flop an Ace depending on the aggresion that may be taking place now, how coordinated the board is, and "who" is doing the betting, and how many are still in the pot.etc. etc..But usually I won't get too involved if I flop an Ace against too many opponents. If I'm on the button and everyone has folded to me, or if perhaps if there is only one limper.....I'll usually raise the hand pre-flop, especially if the blinds are not the type to get overly aggresive as well, and are capable of folding off their blind money. This way, if I get called by just the limper, if I hit an Ace or even my X card, I may have a better shot of taking down the pot. If noone limps in and I'm on the button or the cut-off spot, I'll will raise with Ax suited, but I won't limp. A lot does depend on the tendencies of the small and big blind opponents, so with any holding that is good, but "not" great, those things should be taken in to consideration as well; and how well do 'you' play your hands after the flop is also a big factor here. If there's a raise to me and there's players behind me (who have yet to act)....than I'll fold Ax suited. Those hands (imo) play better after you get all the information 'first' before committing too many of your chips. They're also hands that you can "play back" with when you're in the blinds and everyone has folded to the button, and he tries to steal your blinds; especially if you play your hands really well; post-flop. All in all....I prefer these types of hands as blind stealers, or in LP for a cheap price; look to flop a draw to the nut flush, and proceed with caution if I flop an Ace. 4P- | ||
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| Re: A couple of strategy questions, Schuster, 14. Sep 2003 10:54 | ||
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| Hmmm, the way you play 9-9 down to 6-6 interests me 4 poker. Lately I've had a nagging suspicion that playing 7-7 early has been costing me more than it has been making. Unfortunately poker tracker is still rather new and I don't have enough data in there to make any sort of accurate estimate, so it's really just gut feel. I usually raise with T-T, but limp with 9-9. I also usually just throw 6-6 away. Of course, I'm usually playing 2/4 or 3/6 so the games are much different but perhaps I should consider playing these hands differently. Do you think it's just a difference of limits, play style, or should I consider playing these hands a little more aggresively up front? One other thing about medium pairs up front... Say a good player limps up front and then I limp with a hand like KJs. The flop is something like 2-2-6 and the early player bets out. It's almost certain that he has a pair between 7-7 and 9-9 (depending on if he would raise 9-9 early). So even if the odds might not justify it, I can take a card off, knowing that if I spike a king or a jack, he is drawing near dead and I can get at least 1, but probably 2 big bets out of him by calling the turn and then betting the river when he checks. This is why I'm even less happy about limping with medium pairs in early position if I'm up against astute opponents. It's too easy for them to put me on a hand in situations where the flop is favorable. Is this thinking faulty? Thanks in advance for your comments, Dave. Lee | ||
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| Re: A couple of strategy questions, 4 POKER, 14. Sep 2003 16:50 | ||
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| on 14. Sep 2003 10:54 Schuster wrote: > Hmmm, the way you play 9-9 down to 6-6 interests me 4 poker. Lately I've had a nagging > suspicion that playing 7-7 early has been costing me more than it has been making. > Unfortunately poker tracker is still rather new and I don't have enough data in there to > make any sort of accurate estimate, so it's really just gut feel. I usually raise with > T-T, but limp with 9-9. I also usually just throw 6-6 away. Of course, I'm usually > playing 2/4 or 3/6 so the games are much different but perhaps I should consider playing > these hands differently. Do you think it's just a difference of limits, play style, or > should I consider playing these hands a little more aggresively up front? > > One other thing about medium pairs up front... Say a good player limps up front and then > I limp with a hand like KJs. The flop is something like 2-2-6 and the early player bets > out. It's almost certain that he has a pair between 7-7 and 9-9 (depending on if he would > raise 9-9 early). So even if the odds might not justify it, I can take a card off, > knowing that if I spike a king or a jack, he is drawing near dead and I can get at least > 1, but probably 2 big bets out of him by calling the turn and then betting the river when > he checks. This is why I'm even less happy about limping with medium pairs in early > position if I'm up against astute opponents. It's too easy for them to put me on a hand > in situations where the flop is favorable. Is this thinking faulty? Thanks in advance > for your comments, Dave. > > Lee Hey Lee, Referring to those nagging pairs like 6-6, and 7-7 when in EP, yes, a lot will depend on the limit you play, the aggresiveness of the players, whether the game is full, or shorthanded, etc. etc. I stated that 6-6 is a limping hand from EP, but perhaps I should have said 'at best' it is a limping hand, because if the game is overly aggresive, perhaps it wouldn't be a hand that you would chose to play. I guess you can treat 7-7 the same way; but I do think they have value to them when you don't have to pay too much to see the flop. So yeah, they'll probably play better in a passive game where you may see several opponents just limping in pre-flop, but you'll also have the volume on the hand in case you hit good. Now...if you hit a favorable flop with your 6-6,7-7.(like a set)...sometimes you'll get action on the hand, and sometimes you won't. Sometimes you can play it in a way to let somebody else do the betting for you, sometimes you'll just bet it straight out. When talking about astute players, and you are talking about $2-4 and $3-6 limits; I don't think the whole table is going to be fillled with these types of players. Yes, there 'will' be some good players (of course), but I also think you'll find many of them (or enough of them) who *will* pay you off when you flop really good with your "mediumish" pocket pairs to make them worthwhile to play. My point was to not go overboard with these pairs as that is when they will no longer have any value to them whatsoever. Get in cheap (if you think you can accomplish that; again, depending on the game)....and get out cheap when you miss. But I will raise 9-9 and 10-10 from EP, as I think those pairs are good enough to raise with as to try and narrow the field, and yes, you still must proceed with caution (like with any holding). You may not always raise with these pairs, but sometimes (and quite often), I feel it's the correct play. On the situation where you were referring to a good player limping in UTG, and you have KJ suited; I wouldn't automatically just put that player on a medium pair (like 9-9; your example). There could be numerous of holdings that he would limp in with from that spot; like A-J suited, K-Q suited, 7-7, 8-8, and others. So depending on the texture of the 'rest' of the table should also come into factor before you (anybody) calls a bet with KJ suited in an EP. However, if the flop is 2-2-6, if he bets out and you have KJ, deciding on whether to peel a card off, should also depend on how many other players are still in the hand, and if you 'do' spike a k, or a J on the turn, how would you handle your play then? Just rambling a bit here, and just curious myself. Dave | ||
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| Re: A couple of strategy questions, Schuster, 14. Sep 2003 20:10 | ||
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| > On the situation where you were referring to a good player limping in UTG, and you have KJ > suited; I wouldn't automatically just put that player on a medium pair (like 9-9; your > example). There could be numerous of holdings that he would limp in with from that spot; like > A-J suited, K-Q suited, 7-7, 8-8, and others. So depending on the texture of the 'rest' of the > table should also come into factor before you (anybody) calls a bet with KJ suited in an EP. > However, if the flop is 2-2-6, if he bets out and you have KJ, deciding on whether to peel a > card off, should also depend on how many other players are still in the hand, and if you 'do' > spike a k, or a J on the turn, how would you handle your play then? Just rambling a bit here, > and just curious myself. No, I don't put early limps on medium pairs automatically, but when they bet at a ragged flop, it's more likely than a hand like AJs or KQo. They could be betting a flush draw, but especially if it's rainbow, I tend to put them on a medium pair. There's not a whole lot else they could have that would have been helped by that flop. I generally only peel the card off if I am last to act or close to it and everyone else has gone away. Certainly not in multiway pots. If I do spike my card on the turn, I will let him bet again and just flat call. He will likely check the river, and then I can bet. While raising would be good to get him out, I feel that giving him the 20 to 1 chance at spiking trips is worth it to get an extra big bet out of him on the river. The pot would have to be quite large for this not to be correct, I think. I did try playing 9-9 and 8-8 a little more aggresively in EP today if I thought the situation called for it and it seemed to work out pretty well. It was easier to put people on hands if they cold called my raise so I found it easier to tell if my pair was good or not despite the presence of overcards. Of course, this is only 1 day so it's no where near enough time to really test it out, but I'll keep trying and see how it fits me. Thanks for the advice Dave. It's been very helpful, as always. Lee | ||
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| Re: A couple of strategy questions, shorn, 15. Sep 2003 07:02 | ||
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| Specific to your question about KJs with a ragged flop. If you are going to peel one off, you might as well raise the flop on the off chance that someone is betting a medium pair. That way, you can hopefully isolate him/her and if a K or J comes off you have increased your chances of winning the pot. I think it is better to raise or fold here and it all depends on the likelihood of the rest of the opponents reaction to your raise. | ||
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