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Server Time: 9/5/2008 1:05:42 AM PACIFIC |
 Asking to see cards?, Urban Chaos, 11. Sep 2003 04:38 | ||
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| Been meaning to ask this and procrastinating...but a minor confrontation tonight reminded me.... The subject is asking to see another player's cards once they have called the river and tossed their loser face down. Of course, if it doesn't hit the muck, it's allowed. Some people get very offended and even irate about this. My feeling is that they find it rude, especially from others on the table who were not in the hand (as was the case tonight). Now I haven't done it yet, but I've been tempted to ask, especially when someone raises or 3-bets pre-flop, bets or raises the turn, calls the river and then folds when the winner is shown. Personally, I want to learn more about this player and what he's pre-flop raising or 3-betting that he's throwing it away after calling the river...especially when the board shows cards (paint) that would make him a hand were he playing with cards that it's reasonable to be creating that kind of action (Group 1-3 hands). And while it's allowed, it seems that many consider this taboo or rude. Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Asking to see cards?, shorn, 11. Sep 2003 05:32 | ||
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| This type of thing falls under the "etiquette" of the game even though as you point out it is within the rules to do so. I think it most likely works to your disadsvantage to ask to see the cards because a pissed off player will play differently (and potentially better) against you than one that is calm. Also, no point in embarrassing anyone if they were on a stone bluff. Finally, if the player is a fish, you want to do everything you can to keep him/her around, so that would be another reason not to ask to see. | ||
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| Re: Asking to see cards?, Angel, 11. Sep 2003 05:38 | ||
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| You have the right to ask to see a hand that was showdown but the reason seesm to have been lost along the way. The reason you (or I or anyone) has the right is to protect oneself from collusion between players - and that is the only reason it is allowed. So many people have asked to see the cards for the reasons you stated (gaining information) that the purpose of the rule has been lost on a new generation. I am told, although I haven't confirmed it (I'm in California and thus doesn't affect me personally) that in the high limit games at the Bellagio they have implemented a new rule in keeping with the spirit of the old one - if a player asks to see a hand, the floorperson is called over and takes a look at the hand in question. If there is no reason to suspect collusion in the floorpersons mind - the hand is mucked face down - Any doubts, it's turned up. Someone from Vegas might be able to confirm that for both of us. | ||
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| Re: Asking to see cards?, Risky Business, 11. Sep 2003 06:39 | ||
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| That really surprises me, about Bellagio. If someone suspects collusion, they should get up and leave. Once enough people leave, maybe the folks that are supposed to be keeping the game on the up-and-up will get involved. Seriously, what if the hand just so happens to raise an eyebrow when the floorperson looks at it? What is the Bellagio prepared to do?......watch one of their high paying customers walk out the door, when all it might have been was coincidence? Sounds like this floorperson has all the reason in the world to just muck 'em face down, no matter what. Not attacking you, it just sounds like a smoke screen. on 11. Sep 2003 05:38 Angel wrote: > You have the right to ask to see a hand that was showdown but the reason seems to have been lost along the way. The reason you (or I or anyone) has the right is to protect oneself from collusion between players - and that is the only reason it is allowed. So many people have asked to see the cards for the reasons you stated (gaining information) that the purpose of the rule has been lost on a new generation. > > I am told, although I haven't confirmed it (I'm in California and thus doesn't affect me personally) that in the high limit games at the Bellagio they have implemented a new rule in keeping with the spirit of the old one - if a player asks to see a hand, the floorperson is called over and takes a look at the hand in question. If there is no reason to suspect collusion in the floorpersons mind - the hand is mucked face down - Any doubts, it's turned up. > Someone from Vegas might be able to confirm that for both of us. | ||
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| Re: Asking to see cards?, Barry T, 11. Sep 2003 16:10 | ||
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| Hi. In the Bellagio high limit games (60-120 and up, but less than $3000-6000) if a player wants to see a losing hand, the floor is summoned. The hand is then turned over (the floor does NOT judge if something funny happened), and the game goes on. The player who asked may not ask again, however, he may later ask the floor to examine a hand after the action. At least that was my understanding of the rule as of a month ago when I started my trip. I will be back in Bellagio at the end of the week, and if someone reminds me I will find out the exact proper answer. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Asking to see cards?, LJH, 11. Sep 2003 10:01 | ||
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| urban, i only ask to see cards if i think that there is some type of collusion going on. ljh | ||
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| Re: Asking to see cards?, Blue Sky, 11. Sep 2003 10:22 | ||
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| The only reason that anyone should ask to see someone else's cards is if they expect collusion...which will always include 3 people in the hand. Because of the the recent explosion of poker popularity there are many new players who don't understand the reasoning behind asking to see cards. I have personally witnessed many of these new players asking to see cards because they want to see what their opponents had....they might as well announce to the table "I'm new to the game, come and take my money!" Many times of course they have just cracked someone's great hand and this actually leads to turning the table against the fish, so it hurts them more then it helps them. Fish always claim that they want to know how the other person plays, this is B.S. Play the game and you will see how they play. Quick ways around this: Ask the person if they think your colluding If they say no then explain the rule. If they keep it up ask the dealer and then the floor to explain the rule. If nothing else works throw your hand directly into the muck pile so that no one knows which two are yours. One of the funniest stories I have ever witnessed (and I'm sure many of you have seen this before as well,) was when a fish caught the ass end of a gutshot straight and cracked top two vs. an older lady at the table. The betting had been fast and furious and the lady tossed her cards face down to the middle of the table. The fish requested to see them and with out killing the hand the dealer turned them over to show a pot winning flush where as the the lady had misread the board. It was poetic justice in my mind. | ||
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| Re: Asking to see cards? (Another Rule), Risky Business, 11. Sep 2003 10:28 | ||
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| "...and the lady tossed her cards face down to the middle of the table..." Q: I thought a self muck negated your claim to a pot. Tossing your cards facedown ACROSS THAT IMAGINARY LINE is such a play, am I wrong? I would understand if she SAID "I'm beat" and left them in front of her, but tossing them away.......????? | ||
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| Re: Asking to see cards? (Another Rule), Blue Sky, 11. Sep 2003 10:46 | ||
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| It depends on where you play. Every state's gaming commission has different rules and it also depends on how each casino interputs them also. In Vegas I believe, but I might be a little off on this one, is that the hand is not dead until its in the muck pile. I know for a fact that in Colorado that a hand is not dead until it is in the muck pile. There are plently of places that once its over the line its dead or once the dealer touches it while its face down its dead. If there is ever any question and you want to see the hand in the case that you expect collusion, ask the dealer to kill the hand and then to see it. | ||
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| Re: Asking to see cards?, Banning, 11. Sep 2003 23:57 | ||
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| I think it is rude to force the issue. If you are curious ask the player himself what he had. The reason it is rude is because the rule about getting to see the cards are purely designed to prevent collusion. You are misusing the intent of the rule simply for your gain. Sure some people are willing to do unethical things for more money, I guess it comes down to where to draw the line. I believe in sportsmanship and proper play of any game including poker. | ||
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| Re: Asking to see cards?, Urban Chaos, 12. Sep 2003 00:07 | ||
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| Thank you all for your VERY informative answers and examples. I honestly never knew the rule orignated to expose collusion. Good to know! -Urban "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people; and if you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you. " | ||
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| Re: Asking to see cards?, ADAM THE EXPERT, 12. Sep 2003 04:16 | ||
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| IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS RUDE, YOU MUST FIRST KNOW THE REASON WHY THIS RULE EXISTS. IT IS DESIGNED TO HELP PREVENT PARTNERSHIP PLAY, BY ALLOWING ANYONE TO SEE THE CARDS. OF COURSE, THIS IS A FALICY, AS ANY PARTNERS WITH AN OUNCE OF BRAINS, WILL NOT CALL THE RIVER, SO THEIR HAND CANNOT BE SEEN. SO, BY ASKING TO SEE THE CARDS, YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOU SUSPECT THE PERSON OF CHEATING. AND, I YOU ARE THE WINNER OF THE POT, YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS RUBBING IT IN, THAT YOU HAVE BEATEN THEM. I REALLY HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE ASK TO SEE, AND EVERY SO OFTEN, THEY LOSE THE POT, WHEN THE FOLDING PERSON THROWS AWAY THEIR HAND, BUT MISREAD IT. NOW IT IS TURNED OVER (LIVE) AND THE ASKER LOSES THE POT!!! THIS IS A STUPID RULE, AS IT'S INTENDED PUROSED, IS NOT ACHEIVED. IF YOU MUST, I WOULD SUGGEST KEEPING IT TO AN ABSOLUTE MINIMUM, AS THIS REALLY REALLY MAKES PEOPLE IRATE, AND COULD POSSIBLY RESULT IN VIOLENCE AGAINST YOU. ALSO, YOU WILL HELP YOURSELF BECOME A BETTER PLAYER, BY ATTEMPTING TO PUT THEM ON HANDS, WHEN YOU ARE NOT IN THE POT, WAIT FOR THE SHOWDOWN, AND SEE IF YOU ARE RIGHT. USUALLY, YOU CAN TELL WHAT THEY HAVE, WITH PRACTICE AND EXPERIENCE. IF THE PERSON CAPPED BEFORE THE FLOP, AND ON THE FLOP (CONTAINING AN ACE) AND A FLUSH CARD HITS THE RIVER, AND THEY STILL BET, CALL THE RAISE, THEN SLAM THEIR CARDS ON THE TABLE, UPON SEEING THE FLUSH, YOU CAN PROBABLY PUT THEM ON A SET OF ACES. VERY OFTEN, YOU CAN DETERMINE HOW BIG A HAND THEY HAND, BY THE DEGREE OF ANGER EXPRESSED, BY LOSING SOMEONE LOSING ON A SET OR BETTER, IS GOING TO BE MUCH ANGRIER, THAN ON JUST A GARDEN-VARIETY TOP PAIR. | ||
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