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Server Time: 2/13/2012 6:10:43 AM PACIFIC |
 Help please, KEB, 10. Sep 2003 21:30 | ||
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| This one has been niggling me. Did I play this at all decently? I'm in BB with 4d8c; 4 callers, - I check, SB calls. Flop: 9c 8d 9h. I bet. Fold, fold, and button raises, call, I reraise. Button reraises, call, I call (should I have reraised? Folded?) Turn comes Tc. Check, I check, button bets, fold, I call (mistake?). River 3s. I check, button bets I call. Showdown: button has 7T for 2 pair - TT99 beating my 2 pair 9988. Comments? | ||
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| Re: Help please, shorn, 11. Sep 2003 05:24 | ||
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| on 10. Sep 2003 21:30 KEB wrote: I'm in BB with 4d8c; 4 callers, - I check, SB calls. Flop: 9c 8d 9h. I bet. Fold, fold, and button raises, call, I reraise. Button reraises, call, I call (should I have reraised? Folded?) Turn comes Tc. Check, I check, button bets, fold, I call (mistake?). River 3s. I check, button bets I call. Showdown: button has 7T for 2 pair - TT99 beating my 2 pair 9988. Comments? Don't want to sound too harsh here, but this hand was played very poorly by both you and the button. First problem...why bet the flop? You normally won't be called by a worse hand and more than likely you will be raised by someone representing a 9 or someone who has overcards. Betting this flop pretty much announces that "I do not have a nine." Secondly, when you are raised, you MUST throw it away. What is he/she raising with? You have 3rd worst kicker with your second pair and you basically are drawing to the other two eights in the deck...this is a clear fold. Finally, your calls on the turn and river (especially the turn) are very marginal. Remember...you were 4-bet on the flop by the button. I can guarantee you that when he bets the turn again he has you beat. Sure, in this case he caught hit Ten there and he was bluffing his butt off on the flop. But, you can't expect other players to play this way. 99 times out of 100 the other player who 4-bets the flop will either have a 9 or AA or KK. Bottom line, you lost 3.5 big bets on this hand that you shouldn't have (assuming that you check/called the flop which is marginal, but within reason). Save your $$ for much better spots. This is a great example of why most semi-bluffing and bluffing in LL hold'em is usually a waste of time. Steve | ||
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| Re: Help please, KEB, 11. Sep 2003 06:54 | ||
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| Not harsh at all - honest. I appreciate that. My reasoning behind betting the flop was to represent I had some strength - I see now that with the call and raise - I should have abandoned the hand, or checked to see the turn more cheaply (yes?). The guy raising had been doing that with nothing in previous hands - so going on that information, I decided to play the hand. Thanks for the comments advice. | ||
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| Re: Help please, mkpoker, 11. Sep 2003 09:28 | ||
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| Very respectfully (I think your posts are great, Steve), I disagree with SOME of your criticism. I would bet that flop every time. Your hand is quite possibly the best at this point, but it's still very vulnerable to overcards. Had the betting been checked around, and had the turn been ANY ace or face, it's likely you'd be looking at 2nd best hand. A bet here achieves multiple purposes: It thins the field (of hands like KJ, etc), makes draws pay, and helps you understand where you are. I think it's a good bet. That said, once your best is raised (and then re-raised!), I wholehartedly agree that a fold is in order. Unless you know the better to be a maniac, I'd get out in a hurry.... | ||
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| Re: Help please, Jav, 11. Sep 2003 10:27 | ||
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| I agree, I don't mind the first bet. But I think I would have abandoned the hand when I was raised. | ||
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| Re: Help please, shorn, 11. Sep 2003 11:47 | ||
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| Fair enough. I still wouldn't lead 2nd pair and a 4 kicker into 4 other people with a paired board though. I think it is asking KJ and AJ etc. to raise you and then what do you do? Like I said, you are announcing that you don't have a nine. In fact, I would favor a check raise over a bet any day, hoping that it is checked to the last person. That way, you can certainly limit the field between you and the bettor AND represent a 9. But, I see your point. Just a different way to play it. | ||
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| Re: Help please, Boftx, 11. Sep 2003 10:22 | ||
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| What do you think of this, Shorn? Check-raise the flop, can't hurt in this situation, and the button might even have folded to it, certainly the SB would have. Do it again on the turn if you really think the hand will stand or want to represent the trips or even a boat. If you get re-raised fold it. Bet out on the river and see who salutes, fold to a raise. | ||
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| Re: Help please, Schuster, 11. Sep 2003 10:52 | ||
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| That sounds suspiciously like playing backwards. You're putting in a bunch of money when in reality, no one with a ten is going to fold and you're drawing nearly dead. With 4 other players in the pot, I see a case made for betting out, but I don't think it's a good one. If you get called, I'd say that's the end of it. Any hand that calls you (even if it's just a draw like TJ) has you horribly buried or is a slight (5%) dog to win it. I'd prefer to check and fold with 4 others in the pot, unless it got checked around, in which case I'd bet the turn to represent a slowplay. With 3 opponents, it's borderline, and with 2, I'd definately bet. Lee | ||
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| Re: Help please, Boftx, 11. Sep 2003 11:35 | ||
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| I think the biggest problem I have with this hand is why the button capped the betting on the flop with a open-end draw instead of just calling the BB's re-raise. I suggested the check-raise instead of bet and re-raise to keep the initial layout down. It also helps to reduce the pot odds the button is getting for his draw compared to how it was actually played. I suspect the button might have just called a check-raise instead of re-raising, keeping BB's outlay to 2 bets instead of 4. Personnally, I think the re-raise on the flop, with the subsequect call to the capper, was a mistake. I agree completely with you that if anyone comes in on the turn then get out, especially if you had check-raised on the flop. | ||
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| Re: Help please, shorn, 11. Sep 2003 11:49 | ||
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| I think I favor the checkraise on the flop more than the lead bet...if no one has a nine, then you might get everyone to fold. But, I think a check/fold is probably the best play of the three simply because you have no kicker and can't improve to two better pair ince the 9's counterfeit your 4. | ||
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| Re: Help please, shorn, 11. Sep 2003 12:00 | ||
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| Well, I think the check raise on the flop is a better play than leading out. That way, you can at least represent a 9. Leading out tells the table that you don't have one. I am not so sure about another CR on the turn as now you have 3 cards to the str8 and another "boat" card (989T board). So, I would probably check the turn and fold to any action behind me. And, if you check raise the turn and get called again, then no one is folding the river, so I don't think betting there has a lot of merit. You are basically only going to be called by a hand that beats yours. | ||
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| Re: Help please, Boftx, 11. Sep 2003 13:11 | ||
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| That was my point for the CR on the turn, to see what action you got. Obviously, if you check and someone bets out AFTER your CR on the flop, you should run for the hills. But if you really think you can take the pot down for some reason, a 2nd CR is the only hope you have to be persuasive. If somone caps that, then you MUST fold, unless I'm the one doing the capping :-) I also think it can pay later dividends as advertising no matter what the outcome if you play it right later. I.e., given the hand under discussion, the next time you try a CR you will probably be called all the way to the river. Nice to have happen if you flop the nuts. | ||
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| Re: Help please, Andrew Wells, 11. Sep 2003 14:55 | ||
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| Once you found out the button couldn't be moved (when he makes it four bets on the flop), that's where you need to let it go. | ||
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| Re: Help please, KEB, 11. Sep 2003 16:09 | ||
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| Thank you all for your analysis - this has been extremely helpful...one thing I didn't consider (I am SO such a fish...) was that by betting out - I was announcing I did NOT have a 9 for the set. So, from the gist of your posts, then, to better represent a set/fh, or if, indeed, you make your set/fh, the better play would would be to check raise - yes? | ||
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| Re: Help please, 4 POKER, 11. Sep 2003 16:32 | ||
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| on 11. Sep 2003 16:09 KEB wrote: > Thank you all for your analysis - this has been extremely helpful...one thing I > didn't consider (I am SO such a fish...) was that by betting out - I was announcing I > did NOT have a 9 for the set - from the gist of your posts, then, to better represent > I had a 9, or if, indeed, I'd had it, the better play would have been to check raise? > Not necessarily. Especially if that's how most of the players "think". If you think that a bet by you on the flop would scream out, "HEY, I don't have three nines", (when/*IF* you did indeed have three nines), don't you think now that it is "possible" for someone to make 'plays' against you with a much weaker holding?......of course, because most players don't lead out with trips, and for that one reason, so many more of them will call a single lead out bet trying to hit something that may not be any good anyway! "If" you had flopped three nines; the more deceptive play would have been to actually lead out on the flop as opposed to going for the check-raise. Alot of your opponents will be *shocked* when they see a nine in your hand because so many players put way too much emphasis on the check-raise play, (thinking that it's the only way the hand should OR would be played there), therefore, they're still going to raise you there (on the flop) with top pair, a straight draw, and perhaps just overcards or a bigger pocket pair. Going for a check-raise is not always the best play, even when you're referring to "making the most money out of a particular situation", for the reasons mentioned above. If you did flop three nines in that hand, and had lead at the flop, you *still* would have gotten raised by the same player who wound up beating you with just two pair, and he probably would have been shocked to see you turn over trips, so remember......some of the best plays are the ones that most players aren't capable (or willing) to make; therefore, making you much harder to read as well. Don't be afraid to bet a strong hand; especially against a fuller field, and (especially) when your own hand is still capable of being drawn out on. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Help please, shorn, 12. Sep 2003 04:53 | ||
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| Dave- What you say is much more true in a middle limit game where people all know what is standard play. However, my comments were specific to LL gaes where the only way you will get someone's attention is to check raise. In looking at this hand and KEB's holdin (8 w/4 kicker), the check raise is the ONLY way (IMO) to win the pot "representing" a nine. Leading out into 4 players with that flop isn't going to accomplish anything. So, I think this situation is either a check/fold from 1st position or trying for the checkraise bluff. Leading out is a waste of time with hewre hand. I will agree that in a LL game, it may be better to lead out if you actually have the nine because you are bound to get plenty of action. But you can't represent a 9 that way when you don't have it. Steve | ||
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| Re: Help please, 4 POKER, 12. Sep 2003 11:49 | ||
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| on 12. Sep 2003 04:53 shorn wrote: > Dave- > > What you say is much more true in a middle limit game where people all know what is standard > play. However, my comments were specific to LL gaes where the only way you will get someone's > attention is to check raise. In looking at this hand and KEB's holdin (8 w/4 kicker), the > check raise is the ONLY way (IMO) to win the pot "representing" a nine. Leading out into 4 > players with that flop isn't going to accomplish anything. > > So, I think this situation is either a check/fold from 1st position or trying for the > checkraise bluff. Leading out is a waste of time with hewre hand. > > I will agree that in a LL game, it may be better to lead out if you actually have the nine > because you are bound to get plenty of action. But you can't represent a 9 that way when you > don't have it. > > Steve Steve, no,no,no........you misunderstood my post. KEB was saying, "what IF I held trip nines, would I go for the check-raise then?" My response was based on the "what ifs", as to give him other alternatives on how to play a strong flop *rather* then to always believe that the check-raise play is the only play that he (or anybody) should use. You must give yourself other options, and betting straight out on the flop when holding trips is one way to play your hand deceptively "because" of the fact that you did not go for a check-raise which 'screams' out I have trips. Both plays can and will be correct; I was giving him another approach when flopping a strong hand. In his actual situation, my thoughts would be different because his hand was too weak to continue with that many players in the hand, AND for the fact that his holding was only two pair (and not trips)! Dave | ||
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| Re: Help please, shorn, 12. Sep 2003 11:51 | ||
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| Got it. Sorry for the misread. | ||
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| Re: Help please, mkpoker, 11. Sep 2003 17:03 | ||
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| Not exactly. The old adage when a pair is on the board is "no set, no bet," which means if you haven't flopped trips, you shouldn't bet. But this adage has become so well known that USUALLY, when someone bets out, they're just pretending to have trips. They're hoping their opponents will think you are following the old "no set; no bet" guideline, and they'll fold. But in practice, when you actually have trips, you'll often slowplay, hoping that someone will pretend to have hit, and then you can pounce. 4Pok's comment above suggests that you "double bluff" your opponents by making the conventional play! He suggests that if you actually have trips, you may go ahead and bet out...hoping your opponents will think you're bluffing. So they'll raise you and then you can pounce on them extra hard. What I think this discussion really shows is that there are multiple ways to play hands when there's lots of ambiguity about players' holdings. But once things firm up (like after your opponent 4-bet the flop), you know he's on a good hand, and you can't move him. Unless you have a hand you think is even better (which clearly you did not), you must RUN for the exit! | ||
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| Re: Help please, ADAM THE EXPERT, 12. Sep 2003 04:30 | ||
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| SHOULD YOU HAVE RAISED AGAIN, HA! ! WITH FOUR PLAYERS IN THIS IS CLEARLY A CHECK AND FOLD SITUATION. YOUR HAND IS JUST TOO LOW ON THE TOTEM POLE. WITH EXACTLY 26 HANDS THAT CAN BEAT YOU AT THAT POINT, THE CHANCE OF THE PLAYER HAVING ONE, IS EXCELLENT. CERTAINLY, THOSE CHANCES GO UP WITH EACH RAISE THEY MAKE. OFTEN IN HOLD EM, WE THINK NOT ONLY OF WHETHER WE HAVE THE BEST HAND, BUT THE CHANCES OF IT REMAINING THE BEST HAND ONCE ALL THE CARDS ARE OUT. WITH HIS OPEN ENDED ONE OVERCARD DRAW, HE HAD ABOUT A 42% CHANCE OF OUTDRAWING YOU. BUT, YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT THIS IS WHAT HE HAD. MORE LIKELY, HE HAD ONE OF THE 26 HANDS THAT COULD BEAT YOU. I HOLD EM, WE SOMETIMES THINK OFFENSE, AND SOMETIMES THINK DEFENSE. WHEN WE HAVE A WEAK HAND IN A SITUATION WHERE WE DIDN'T EVEN VOLUNTARILY PUT MONEY IN THE POT, IT'S TIME TO THINK DEFENSE. WHY RISK ALL THOSE BETS, WITH A HOPELESS RAG?! IF THE PERSON IS A FREQUENT BLUFFER, YOU MAY DECIDE TO CALL THEM, BUT CERTAINLY DON'T RAISE. IF THEY ONLY HAVE OVERCARDS, THEY ARE CALLING ONE MORE BET ANYWAY, TO SEE IF THEY HIT, SO YOU ARE NOT GIVING UP A FREE CARD. DEFENSE!!!!!! | ||
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