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Server Time: 11/20/2008 12:54:31 AM PACIFIC |
 Poor strategy?, fourstar2000, 10. Sep 2003 08:31 | ||
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| I have recently started playing NL SnGs and enjoy them a lot more than the Limit SnGs I had been playing the past few months. An interesting situation came up in one last night that I was hoping to get some feedback on. We were just seated and waiting for the tournament to begin when I noticed that one of the other players is someone I'm very familiar with. When I first started to play Limit SnGs, he seemed to be in every one I was in and more often than not knocked me out. What I soon realized though was that he never seemed to be able to lay down a hand. If he had top pair, he was playing it to the river, no matter how many raises there were. After a while, I started knocking him out of tournaments because I knew how to capitalize on his play. Based on his inability to lay down a hand, I was very excited to see him in a NL tournament where I figured I could really deplete his stack in the right situation. Sure enough, the first hand I'm dealt aces in the small blind. Everyone begins with 1500, blinds are 10/20, and three or four people limp in. The guy 2 from the button raises to 40 and the guy I'm familiar with now raises to 160 from the cutoff. Button folds and I decide to push all-in. Everyone folds to the cutoff who immediately calls and shows 55. A river 5 sent me out on the first hand. Normally I don't go all-in early on, even if I have aces. With the blinds so small, going all-in screams aces and makes everyone fold when I could have taken a decent chunk out of their stack playing it a little more rationally. But when I saw this guy re-raise, I was 99% sure he would call my all-in. I guess I'm curious as to whether you guys think I was too greedy pre-flop in this situation. Would it have been better to call 160 or raise to around 500 and play it from there? It wasn't like I was being forced to go all-in and had a no-brainer call with aces. Thanks in advance for any feedback. | ||
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| Re: Poor strategy?, Oxford3, 10. Sep 2003 08:37 | ||
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| If your not willing to go allin with ACEs you probably shouldnt be playing NL. Did you win? | ||
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| Re: Poor strategy?, shorn, 10. Sep 2003 08:38 | ||
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| I would have likely made a pot szed raise and then if he called made him make a big decision after the flop. Regardless of what flops, you are probably still ahead and he will likely lay down his 55 if three overcards to his pair (likely) come on the flop and no 5 comes. In effect, you are forcing him to make two difiicult decisions instead of one while limiting the number of cards he gets to see for the first decision (3 instead of 5). Unless the guy was a total maniac (or a 5 came on the flop), he would be hard pressed to call your large flop bet with at best 2nd or third pair if two babies came. I have found that the larger number of difficult decisions you force a bad player to make, the greater chance that they will fold their hand when you want them too. Yes, he made a bad call and sucked out on you...that will happen. But, using this method you would give him more chances to "do the right thing" and that ensures your survival. | ||
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| Re: Poor strategy?, jaustin, 10. Sep 2003 09:01 | ||
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| I think you're all-in was the right call. Letting him see the flop would be a big-mistake. Unless an absolutely terrible flop comes (TJQ all one suit you don't have, etc), you're playing your AA. Make him pay when you have the huge advantage. This early there are only a few hands he would make a big raise with (AK, maybe AQ, and pocket pairs). If he has one of the first two it's fine for him to see the flop, but with a pocket pair, you're giving him a chance to either make a set or escape cheaply. | ||
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| Re: Poor strategy?, shorn, 10. Sep 2003 09:05 | ||
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| I don't agree. Doubling up on the first hand in a SnG guarantees you nothing and while you do have the best "pre-flop" hand, why let him see all five cards for 1 decision? I think the more optimal play is to bet less of your stack and if he calls, then make him look at two or three overcards to his pair AND THEN bet the rest of his chips. Sure, he is 7.5 to 1 to flop his set, but with a pot sized bet, you are still getting the best of it by far AND if you lose the hand, you are still around to win the tourny later. If it were later on and the amounts were different whereby going all-in and winning would give you a monster advantage, then i would agree. But the first hand isn't the time for it whether you have Aces or not. | ||
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| Re: Poor strategy?, jaustin, 10. Sep 2003 09:31 | ||
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| Either way, if you lose the hand you're going to be out. He has position so you'll have to make a big bet post-flop and he'll have the opportunity to get away from his hand or take-you out if he flops trips (unless you would fold you aces if he re-raised). The only way you lose with an all-in pre rather than post flop is if he hits trips on the turn or river and you don't hit trips as well, which is only a ~7% chance. Betting pre-flop you have an ~81% chance to win 1560 and 19% chance to bust out. Betting post-flop you have an ~88% chance to win 860 chips and a 12% chance to bust out. I think the extra 700 chips is worth the additonal 7% chance to bust out. It basically comes down to whether you would want him to call an all-in post flop if he doesn't flop his set. | ||
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| Re: Poor strategy?, shorn, 10. Sep 2003 09:38 | ||
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| Good points. However, since the goal of the SnG is to win it, you need to be around for the top 3 to do so. Therefore, I think the psychological factor of him seeing two or three overcards to his pair when you bet the pot will make him fold more often than he will pre-flop. So, I will sacrifice the extra chips to stay alive. I will admit, I am not SnG specialist by any means. I just don't like the quick all-in just because you have bullets when really there is not that much to gain by going from 1000 to 2000 in chips on the first hand. | ||
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| Re: Poor strategy?, Schuster, 10. Sep 2003 10:28 | ||
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| There is a lot to gain in doubling up early though. If I can get it all in before the flop with aces in a SnG, I will do so every time. I'd do it even if everyone else at the table was all in. The reason is that doubling up early makes it much more likely for me to finish in the money, and on the off chance that I do bust out, I can just sit in another one. For me, playing SnG's isn't all about finishing as high as possible, it's getting the most money over time. It's an hourly rate thing. Why waste a bunch of time just to bust out 4th or 5th? As far as getting your money in before the flop with aces in a one shot deal tournament, I guess that's another discussion. I still couldn't pass that up in most circumstances. Lee | ||
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| Re: Poor strategy?, noiseboy, 10. Sep 2003 10:31 | ||
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| Although it is still early, chips beget chips in NL, so gaining an early lead increases your chances of winning more than it would seem, especially if you are good at pushing people around with your stack. That being said, you are right that it's still early and an early lead isn't really a guarantee of anything. | ||
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| Re: Poor strategy?, noiseboy, 10. Sep 2003 09:40 | ||
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| Nah, go in with the AA's. KK's maybe you want to see a flop first. Calling all in with 55's is just a bonehead play. You are what, 5 to 1 to double up on the first hand? Doubling up that early I think is worth the risk. | ||
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| Re: Poor strategy?, shorn, 10. Sep 2003 09:41 | ||
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| I guess I am just a pansy... :) | ||
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| Re: Poor strategy?, fourstar2000, 10. Sep 2003 10:11 | ||
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| Thanks to everyone who responded. I just wanted to mention something that I may not have been clear about in my original post. I wasn't worried about going all in with aces, I was wondering more if that was the optimal play in that situation. Normally I would have re-raised, but not all-in. I played differently because of the opponent, who I was fairly certain would call no matter what. The fact that I played it differently than I normally do (not to mention ended up busted on the first hand) made me question whether I should have made this play. Thanks again for the input. | ||
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| Re: Poor strategy?, noiseboy, 10. Sep 2003 10:26 | ||
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| Although you will occasionally bust out, you WANT a call when you are a huge favorite. There is some merit in playing the hand the way shorn recommends, but I think it is equally good to just go all-in right away if you think he might call. The only thing I don't like about shorn's play is that you might go broke to a set that someone wouldn't have seen on the flop if they would have folded to the all-in. But with this player being this loose, you are likely to go on with the hand regardless, so my play and shorn's are virtually the same in this instance. You will double up most of the time, and once in a while you are going broke. | ||
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