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Server Time: 11/20/2008 5:46:46 AM PACIFIC |
 Would you lay this down?, Blue Sky, 9. Sep 2003 16:01 | ||
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| This is a very ugly hand and normally I wouldn't think twice about it because it was a terribly small pot, but because I was playing vs. a good friend (a solid rock of a player,) its stuck with me. Typical Colorado Loose Passive $2 to $5 spread limit game. 5 callers see an unraised flop. I'm on the button with K4d. Flop comes 3 K 8 rainbow. Checked to me and I bet (only because I was on the button,) Blind (my buddy) calls as does UTG (a total fish who hasn't laiddown a hand for a single bet all night.) Turn is a 5. Checked around. River is a Q. Blind bets out, UTG folds. Its on me now and the pots only $30 to me and I call time and start running over the hands the blind could have here. I actually started talking outloud at the table (2 reasons - 1. get a tell on my buddy & 2. trying to show some of these "see ya at the river" fish that I know what I doing so that I gain some respect.) Because the blind called the flop I had to put him on a K, he's a solid player and more then likely had a K with a horrible kicker in the blind and knew that he couldn't bet it but when it checked to me he must of figured that I was making a button bet with nothing so he called. Because we all checked the turn he must of assumed his read of my hand was correct and that his K was going to be good here, he was also hoping that either UTG or myself caught the Q on the river and was going to call or even raise him with the under pair. Now the big dilemia for me, how big is his kicker? The only card I could beat was the 2, I didn't believe he would slow roll the turned second pair, if he thought he was ahead because he knew I would check the turn if I had simply made a button bet. I said all of the above thoughts outloud and the blind never flinched. I couldn't see how I was ahead here and flashed him my 4 kicker and said the pot was his and mucked. HE FLASHED ME THE 2 KICKER! I wanted to punch him, but those are the breaks, I made my read and was wrong. Any one play this one any differently? Should I have bet the turn? | ||
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| Re: Would you lay this down?, DJpoker, 9. Sep 2003 16:51 | ||
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| I don't see how you could lay top pair down for 1 bet on the river. Granted, the blind (your buddy) bet out on the river after simply check-calling the flop and turn, but maybe he knows you too well. He probably knew you would fold if he bet out. I realize your kicker was weak, but I would have called 1 bet. You are getting 6:1 for your bet. In fact, if you know your buddy well enough, raise him and tell him you tried to let him get out easy. I know that sounds crazy, but if he doesn't call or reraises you can lay your hand down and not expose it to the rest of the table. Either way, this sounds like a great hand to advertise. Regardless of if you win or lose, the table will have the perception that 1) you play looser hands and 2) you have the ability to raise without the nut hand. They will never know if you are telling the truth and I can't think of a better way to play poker LOL. DJpoker | ||
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| Re: Would you lay this down?, kennycatkiller, 9. Sep 2003 20:38 | ||
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| How did you get into this hand anyhow? But, once you were in, flopped the King, and bet the flop, you simply had to keep driving until someone gave you reason to stop betting. KEN_HONEST | ||
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| Re: Would you lay this down?, Mark, 9. Sep 2003 20:46 | ||
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| Hi Blue Sky I don't really like the way you played your hand. My thoughts are below. I may sound harsh, but i'm telling you how i see it. > This is a very ugly hand and normally I wouldn't think twice about it because it > was a terribly small pot, but because I was playing vs. a good friend (a solid > rock of a player,) its stuck with me. > > Typical Colorado Loose Passive $2 to $5 spread limit game. 5 callers see an > unraised flop. I'm on the button with K4d. > > Flop comes 3 K 8 rainbow. > Checked to me and I bet (only because I was on the button,) Blind (my buddy) > calls as does UTG (a total fish who hasn't laiddown a hand for a single bet all > night.) > This is a good bet. If your going to play it at all, you need to find out where you're at. How much did you bet, $5? > Turn is a 5. > Checked around. A complete blank hits the turn and you check your top pair against your buddy and a complete fish! The fact that the fish would throw money away is good enough reason bet on its own. Your buddy might fold and you would get heads up with a loose passive player! What would your friend have? He didn't bet or checkraise the flop, so IF he does have top pair its weak. Also a bet from the button is sometimes suspicious, would your friend call a button's bet on the flop with 2nd pair or an Ace? You are the only one to show strength and they are just responding to you. You must bet the max on the turn. You can't allow either player to catch an ace or pick up a draw for free. As far as you know your hand is best and should be acting on it. > River is a Q. > Blind bets out, UTG folds. Its on me now and the pots only $30 to me and I > call time and start running over the hands the blind could have here. This should be an automatic call. Betting the flop and checking the turn makes it look like you were trying to steal on the flop. Your getting 6:1 (assuming he bet the max) that he doesn't have a better kick (assuming he even has a king). > I actually started talking outloud at the table (2 reasons - 1. get a tell on > my buddy maybe a good reason & 2. trying to show some of these "see ya at the river" fish that I > know what I doing so that I gain some respect.) This is a bad reason. Don't smarten these guys up. Let them play bad and call your good hands down, you'll make more money. Just don't bet into large fields without great hands. You can't change the texture of these loose low limit games so don't waste your time trying. Half of the guys who heard you didn't even understand what you were doing. > Because the blind called the flop I had to put him on a K, he's a solid player What about an 8 or ace or a middle pocket pair? > and more then likely had a K with a horrible kicker in the blind and knew that > he couldn't bet it but when it checked to me he must of figured that I was > making a button bet with nothing so he called. Your putting your friend on too small a range of hands, giving him too much credit, and then assuming he would make a bad play. If he thought you were stealling he would (should) have raised you on the flop. Because we all checked the turn > he must of assumed his read of my hand was correct and that his K was going to > be good here, Wouldn't he bet a queen if he caught one? AQsuited is a definate possibility for his hand at this point. What about a complete bluff? No one showed any strength on the Turn when a blank hit. he was also hoping that either UTG or myself caught the Q on the > river and was going to call or even raise him with the under pair. You are being too specific with your read. Would your friend really want to get raised on the river holding only a weak King? Now the big > dilemia for me, how big is his kicker? The only card I could beat was the 2, I > didn't believe he would slow roll the turned second pair, if he thought he was > ahead because he knew I would check the turn if I had simply made a button bet. > > > I said all of the above thoughts outloud and the blind never flinched. I > couldn't see how I was ahead here and flashed him my 4 kicker and said the pot > was his and mucked. > > HE FLASHED ME THE 2 KICKER! I wanted to punch him, but those are the breaks, I > made my read and was wrong. Again, saying that stuff out loud is probably just wasting your breath. And if someone was aware enough to understand what you were doing, they would be able to use it agaisnt you. > Any one play this one any differently? Should I have bet the turn? You should have bet the turn, and definately have called the river. Mark | ||
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| Re: Would you lay this down?, 4 POKER, 10. Sep 2003 03:02 | ||
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| Great analysis on the hand, Mark. Very well thought out from every perspective. 4 POKER on 9. Sep 2003 20:46 Mark wrote: > Hi Blue Sky > > I don't really like the way you played your hand. My thoughts are below. > I may sound harsh, but i'm telling you how i see it. > > > This is a very ugly hand and normally I wouldn't think twice about it because it > > > was a terribly small pot, but because I was playing vs. a good friend (a solid > > rock of a player,) its stuck with me. > > > > Typical Colorado Loose Passive $2 to $5 spread limit game. 5 callers see an > > unraised flop. I'm on the button with K4d. > > > > Flop comes 3 K 8 rainbow. > > Checked to me and I bet (only because I was on the button,) Blind (my buddy) > > calls as does UTG (a total fish who hasn't laiddown a hand for a single bet all > > night.) > > > > This is a good bet. If your going to play it at all, you need to find out where > you're at. How much did you bet, $5? > > > Turn is a 5. > > Checked around. > > A complete blank hits the turn and you check your top pair against your buddy and a > complete fish! The fact that the fish would throw money away is good enough reason > bet on its own. Your buddy might fold and you would get heads up with a loose > passive player! > > What would your friend have? He didn't bet or checkraise the flop, so IF he does > have top pair its weak. Also a bet from the button is sometimes suspicious, would > your friend call a button's bet on the flop with 2nd pair or an Ace? > > You are the only one to show strength and they are just responding to you. You must > bet the max on the turn. You can't allow either player to catch an ace or pick up a > draw for free. As far as you know your hand is best and should be acting on it. > > > River is a Q. > > Blind bets out, UTG folds. Its on me now and the pots only $30 to me and I > > call time and start running over the hands the blind could have here. > > This should be an automatic call. Betting the flop and checking the turn makes it > look like you were trying to steal on the flop. Your getting 6:1 (assuming he bet > the max) that he doesn't have a better kick (assuming he even has a king). > > > I actually started talking outloud at the table (2 reasons - 1. get a tell on > > my buddy > > maybe a good reason > > & 2. trying to show some of these "see ya at the river" fish that I > > know what I doing so that I gain some respect.) > > This is a bad reason. Don't smarten these guys up. Let them play bad and call your > good hands down, you'll make more money. Just don't bet into large fields without > great hands. > > You can't change the texture of these loose low limit games so don't waste your time > trying. Half of the guys who heard you didn't even understand what you were doing. > > > Because the blind called the flop I had to put him on a K, he's a solid player > > What about an 8 or ace or a middle pocket pair? > > > and more then likely had a K with a horrible kicker in the blind and knew that > > he couldn't bet it but when it checked to me he must of figured that I was > > making a button bet with nothing so he called. > > Your putting your friend on too small a range of hands, giving him too much credit, > and then assuming he would make a bad play. If he thought you were stealling he > would (should) have raised you on the flop. > > Because we all checked the turn > > he must of assumed his read of my hand was correct and that his K was going to > > be good here, > > Wouldn't he bet a queen if he caught one? AQsuited is a definate possibility for > his hand at this point. What about a complete bluff? No one showed any strength on > the Turn when a blank hit. > > > he was also hoping that either UTG or myself caught the Q on the > > river and was going to call or even raise him with the under pair. > > You are being too specific with your read. Would your friend really want to get > raised on the river holding only a weak King? > > Now the big > > dilemia for me, how big is his kicker? The only card I could beat was the 2, I > > didn't believe he would slow roll the turned second pair, if he thought he was > > ahead because he knew I would check the turn if I had simply made a button bet. > > > > > > > I said all of the above thoughts outloud and the blind never flinched. I > > couldn't see how I was ahead here and flashed him my 4 kicker and said the pot > > was his and mucked. > > > > HE FLASHED ME THE 2 KICKER! I wanted to punch him, but those are the breaks, I > > made my read and was wrong. > > Again, saying that stuff out loud is probably just wasting your breath. And if > someone was aware enough to understand what you were doing, they would be able to > use it agaisnt you. > > > Any one play this one any differently? Should I have bet the turn? > > You should have bet the turn, and definately have called the river. > > Mark | ||
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| Re: Would you lay this down?, MozMan, 9. Sep 2003 20:58 | ||
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| This is why playing a hand like K-little is such a bad idea. It puts you in the position of having to make decisions like this. Having said that, the solid's weak play should have kept you in the driver's seat. You gotta keep betting until he pushes back; if he finally gets the message that you have a K, he will fold knowing his kicker sucks. -Moz "That man is a Brownie-hound." | ||
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| Re: Would you lay this down?, Schuster, 9. Sep 2003 22:05 | ||
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| If you show weakness on the turn, you have to pay it off on the river most of the time. Otherwise you are just encouraging people to bluff at you. If you bet the flop and just get called and then a blank comes, you should keep on betting unless the field is massive, even if your kicker is questionable. I wouldn't have been in the hand to begin with, but once I was, I would have bet the flop, bet the turn, and checked down the river. You are in position here, you have to be able to use it profitably. Lee | ||
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| Re: Would you lay this down?, 4 POKER, 9. Sep 2003 22:30 | ||
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| Hey, I would have bet the turn. (especially after they check it to you again). The 5 that came on the turn was a pretty safe card for, IF you thought you had the best hand on the flop. Obviously you did because you bet it, and you're supposed to bet top pair with a raggedy looking flop. After your flop bet, you only have two opponents left in this hand with you, which will make your own hand safer to hold up AND the turn bet to be made with more ease because of that factor. Okay though.....you decided to check the turn, but just because someone leads at the river, it doesn't mean he has you beat. You gave him the perfect opportunity to bluff bet the river because you backed off from betting on the turn. After the BB bets out and the UTG player has folded, I would have called here. You stated that your buddy was a solid player, and had you bet the turn, he may have check-raised you there which could have given you a little bit more info that maybe he had a King with a better kicker, and you could have layed it down there if you chose to.......but by you giving up on the turn, "allows" him to bet almost anything at the river; a Q, a smaller pair that perhaps hit the flop....or an out and out bluff; but you also now have the opportunity to cashing in on that bet by calling. I probably would have bet the flop, turn, and perhaps went for the free card on the river as you'd be more likely to have gotten one due to your previous aggresion. One reason being.....if he holds a King, he could very well have you outkicked because the cards on the board were low enough where his kicker may very well come into play. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Would you lay this down?, shorn, 10. Sep 2003 05:46 | ||
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| U won't go through whether or not you should have been in the hand or not...that has been done. However, this is one of those must calls on the river. By checking the turn you are practically telling the table that you bet the flop with a weak hand and are therefore encouraging anyone with anything to bluff at you on the river. His bet doesn't mean crap...getting 6 to1 at worst, you have to throw the chips in the pot here just because you played the hand the way you did. If you had bet the turn, you most likely would have folded off everyone except the guy with the weaker King who would have then checked the river. Bottom line...it was your turn play that got you into trouble and since you chose to check, you should have done so thinking that you would pay off any river bet. | ||
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| Re: Would you lay this down?, Blue Sky, 10. Sep 2003 10:07 | ||
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| Hey guys, Thanks for the responses. I agree with most of you that I got into trouble when I didn't bet the turn. I more then likely could of taken my buddy out of the hand right there. I showed weakness giving him the idea that I had made a bluff at the pot, thus allowing him to bet out on the river and make me laydown this ugly hand. Once again thanks. | ||
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