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Server Time: 11/20/2008 3:43:06 AM PACIFIC |
 Did I play it right?, Pedro, 9. Sep 2003 06:08 | ||
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| I get a free play in the big blind with 89 non suited. Flop came 10-7-3. It is a no limit table and the pot is currently 4 dollars. I bet 2 dollars from the big blind on the flop 2 people folded while one caller next card I get my money card 6 of spades. Giving me the nut straight but also giving someone 4 to a flush. I checked this hand cause my opponet was a very agressive player and bet everytime someone checked to him he bought the bate and bet 5 dollars I raised to 24 dollars. To my suprised he called. Next card was the 5th spade 2 of spades. Giving him the flush. I was suprised that he called a 25 dollar raise on a draw. I put him on pocket 10's or sometihng of that sort I would never have made that call on a prayer on the last card. In a limit game I would of but when someone bets 24 dollars I would think that would move him. He got lucky and won that hand but he ended up losing all the money he had shows he wasn't that strong of a player. Could I have done anything different? | ||
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| Re: Did I play it right?, Roy Cooke, 9. Sep 2003 07:54 | ||
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| Hi Pedro You did not state what happened on the river...Was your opponent all-in on the turn? That said, I think the decision on the turn was a good one based on your opponents texture...I might have bet more on the flop...but then again that is a texture question also! Sometimes all you can do is all you can do....You can't control the cards that come......Focus on what you can control and don't worry about what you can't! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 9. Sep 2003 06:08 Pedro wrote: > I get a free play in the big blind with 89 non suited. Flop came 10-7-3. It is > a no limit table and the pot is > currently 4 dollars. I bet 2 dollars from the big blind on the flop 2 people > folded while one caller next > card I get my money card 6 of spades. Giving me the nut straight but also > giving someone 4 to a flush. > I checked this hand cause my opponet was a very agressive player and bet > everytime someone checked to him he bought the bate and bet 5 dollars I raised > to 24 dollars. To my suprised he called. Next card was the 5th spade 2 of > spades. > Giving him the flush. I was suprised that he called a 25 dollar raise on a > draw. I put him on pocket 10's > or sometihng of that sort I would never have made that call on a prayer on the > last card. In a limit game > I would of but when someone bets 24 dollars I would think that would move him. > He got lucky and won > that hand but he ended up losing all the money he had shows he wasn't that > strong of a player. > Could I have done anything different? | ||
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| Re: Did I play it right?, Pedro, 9. Sep 2003 10:40 | ||
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| The river came and I checked I knew i was beat and he showed the cards even after I folded another bad move I think. He went all in after I checked. Really just an unlucky 5th card oh well. | ||
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| Re: Did I play it right?, DallasPokerFan, 9. Sep 2003 08:31 | ||
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| I agree with Roy. The only thing I would've done differently is raise a bit on the flop .. but I say that not knowing how many folks were playing the flop. This guy got lucky, obviously, but from your post, I gather that he didn't make his own luck. In other words, it doesn't sound like the guy just played one unconventionally for the purpose of crossing up the table. Doing that is okay, but he sounds like a chaser .. to wit, he lost all his money by the end of the session. You were not going to drive him out of this hand no matter what, seeing as how he called $19 when pot odds were not in his favor. (I'm guessing about a $25 - $30 before your raise, $50 or so after, and his odds of making flush on the river were about 20%.) Just one of those things .. I've been on both sides, except I play unconventionally on purpose just to mix up the table. Remind me to tell you my QQ story! | ||
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| Re: Did I play it right?, Mark Gregorich, 9. Sep 2003 10:33 | ||
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| I thought your play was fine, and I'm also not surprised that your opponent didn't end up leaving with any chips. I'm curious, though, about whether each of you had a significant number of chips left to bet on the river. If so, then I don't feel his call is so bad. The reason for this is that even though he isn't getting the right price to draw for the flush at this point, he may feel he can extract a large bet from you on the river if he hits, thus making this a situation which has good implied value for him. If either one of you was all in on the turn, though, it was clearly a poor call by your opponent (all he has to do is do the math to see this!) Mark | ||
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| Bad play, stdioh, 9. Sep 2003 10:50 | ||
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| I'm going to ignore the obvious part of this and get to the question of, "Why did you bet that flop?" That is the kind of flop that you want to check in early position and either check-call or check-fold depending on the bet that is made. You're really hoping for a free card. By betting there you might win the pot now, but that argument could be made for any 2 cards. When you bet out in early position like that, if you make your hand then you are going to have a harder time extracting money from the second best hand. In this case, you should have just checked. Then if you are bet at and make your miracle on the turn, you can consider a big money checkraise on the turn. Now when that flush draw comes, this is the wrong place for a checkraise. You don't want your opponent to draw, plain and simple. Make sure that he doesn't have odds. Make a pot sized bet. If he had been smart and taken a free card, you would have looked like the dummy when he caught his flush for free and socked it to you. All told, I think that you played this hand very badly. You made the worst out of a very lucky situation. | ||
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| Re: Bad play, Pedro, 9. Sep 2003 10:56 | ||
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| Yo bet the flop hoping to get 2 free cards. so when you dont bet the turn he may be thinking a check raise may come. Thats how i have been taught atleast . Roy said i should of bet it stronger on the flop. | ||
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| Re: Bad play, stdioh, 9. Sep 2003 12:03 | ||
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| Well, the first card isn't free, since you just paid for it by betting. The second card isn't free either. What is he going to call you with on the flop, but be unwilling to bet at you with on the turn that he will then call with on the river? You're setting yourself up here. If you need that second free card, you're not going to make any money off of it unless you pull some magic like making him a set that also makes your draw. By betting the flop and not the turn you're telegraphing that you're either on a weak made hand or on a draw yourself. A good player will pounce on you when a blank comes and will know what is happening when you do make your draw. | ||
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| Re: Bad play, Pedro, 9. Sep 2003 12:28 | ||
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| um but i checked on the 2nd part cause i made my hand not cause i didnt make it. Another reason when 3 blank hits you can win the pot right there the bet is correct. If someone calls you have 8 outs. If you hit your hand which i did you have the nuts unless he gets lucky and catch his flush on the river. Every play is debatable but I think betting is the right move. | ||
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| Re: Bad play, JaggedEj, 9. Sep 2003 13:04 | ||
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| My only comment is that free cards are usually taken in LATE position, not early. In Late position, they check around to you to see what you'll do, expecting anothe raise perhaps where you can then raise. In early position, they've already seen your lack of action and can bet accordingly | ||
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| Re: Bad play, Pedro, 9. Sep 2003 13:15 | ||
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| yes thats true however in this case if i had bet strong maybe the spades would of left. If I check call and then check raise he may have folded also. However i think this guy was stubborn and no matter what I bet he was staying all the way. He got lucky and caught. I thought with a 3710 flop I could win the pot right there with a bet. If someone called I had outs and if i made my hand it would be the strongest hand. In no limit you can't go chasing so you have to be the better if you want people out. You set the amount of money you are willing to lose, if your the better that flop wasn't going to be raised unless your bets were very weak. The advantage of being the bettor in no limit is huge. It makes your opponets think of what you can have rather then what you do. The illusion of stronger hands cross there mind, and usually you will steal the pot. This hand I just happened to have the strongest hand and it got outdrawn. | ||
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| Re: Bad play, 4 POKER, 9. Sep 2003 13:30 | ||
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| Hi, I agree with Stdioh on this one. (Not that your play was bad or anything), but I would probably have handled the flop the same way as Stdioh suggested, and I would also make a bet on the turn as well. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Bad play, WilliamS, 9. Sep 2003 13:53 | ||
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| I see both sides of this and I'm taking the middle.....hehehehe. Either bet larger than 2 dollars or check it and see what happens. A 2 dollar bet in that situation isn't going to win you any amount of money if everyone folds and tends to invite aggression. If someone comes over the top of you then you're faced with a tough laydown. That being said, my question is actually about a similar situation I have seen several times in the last few weeks on UB NL games. A player in early position (usu. one of the blinds) checking, then when there is substantial action to him raising all-in with nut flush draws or open ended straight draws. For example, MP player makes min. bet, then button makes min. raise then our early position hero or nemesis (depending on perspective) raises all-in. I was wondering how often you guys were seeing similar plays. I understand the semi-bluff play and I realize it is totally read dependent and depends on game texture, but seems as though it will have an extremely high variance. Anyway thats my take and ....err question Will | ||
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| Re: Bad play, stdioh, 10. Sep 2003 10:23 | ||
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| If you are playing in a game where anything short of a massive overbet of the pot folds an opponent off of a flush draw then you are playing in a game that is too tough. That is a fold that bad players never make. | ||
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| Re: Bad play, stdioh, 10. Sep 2003 10:22 | ||
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| No. Betting here minimizes the amount you can win when you have the best hand in the end and maximizes the amount you can lose when you don't have the best hand in the end. You're falling into the classic trap of "playing backwards" ... when you start doing the opposite of the correct move for deception so often that you're not decieving anybody - you're just playing everything bass ackwards. | ||
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| Re: Bad play, Pedro, 10. Sep 2003 12:28 | ||
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| I don't bet a draw all the time. Infact usually ill check fold or if the bet is small I'll call but the bet in this specific instance was made cause I felt weakness on the 4 players that were in. It was a instincts bet. I don't know if it was wrong but I felt it was the rigt move at the time. The truth is I should of bet stronger cause my instincts were right. He had nothing the fact that he called a 2 and 24 dollar bet with nothing shows he wasn't a strong player. Bad players will get lucky and catch and he did so. But most of the time the big pot would of been mine. You may disagree with my bet but if i check he can bet 4-5 dollar in his position and move me. No Limit is all about positioning. I have always been told that if your cards are worth a bet you be the one to bet them. You may disagree with that but thats the way I play. | ||
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| Re: Bad play, stdioh, 11. Sep 2003 15:41 | ||
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| To say, "If your cards are worth a bet, bet them," holds a lot more water in limit than in no limit and all aphorisms such as that have their limitations. You can also say, "Never draw to a gutshot," but there are times when it is correct to do so. In this case, you were facing 4 opponents and if you were sensing weakness from all of them then maybe you can think about trying to buy the pot without a hand. If that's what you're doing you have to make a big bet. Betting a paltry sum like that gives the other players odds to draw to absolutely anything. Anyhow, I don't mean to be a big heavy here. I just want to let you know that there is a lot of food for thought in these sort of hands and the way to *not* play poker is to assume that what you think is the right move always is the right move. If you're going to do something, know what you're going to do. And never underestimate the value of position. When you are out of position you are so much worse off than when you are in position. I find that green players really tend to fail in regards of position. Respect players yet to act - they might just hold the nuts. | ||
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