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Server Time: 3/12/2010 3:16:21 PM PACIFIC |
 Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, Brian462, 8. Sep 2003 12:15 | ||
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| I picked up Lee Jones's Low Limit Hold'em book this weekend and found in pretty helpful, especially his thoughts on position. I didn't agree with everything namely, he seems to over rate the "maniacs" tendenacy to play extremely poor hands such as 7 - 2 o, or 9-3. In the games I have played in they are more likely to play things like A, any or any two suited or any two connectors...regardless of raises or position. My question for the forum is does anyone else who has read the book have any other thoughts or comments that maybe helpful to think about. | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, Giocatore, 8. Sep 2003 13:04 | ||
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| Hey Brian. I received Lee Jones' book 2 weeks ago thanks to FPP on PokerStars and have since then read it twice. While I found some of the concepts to be quite helpful, I was disappointed in the fact that in EVERY scenario he outlines, he automatically assumes that you are up against 3 or more opponents. While low limit games tend to be loose, not EVERY game is such. In other words, Jones places too much emphasis on this and does not even mention situations where you find yourself heads up in one of these low limit games. This is the one major problem I have with his book, and I'm thinking about e-mailing him directly and asking him why he neglected such scenarios and opted instead to focus solely on situations where half the table or more was seeing the flop. On the other hand, if you are exclusively a low limit player and fortunate enough to find yourself in these loose games, then Jones' book is highly recommendable. Giocatore | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, Barry T, 8. Sep 2003 13:10 | ||
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| Hi. Lee is my friend (disclaimer). Lee wrote the book after playing almost exclusively in the wild low limit games (mostly 3-6 and 6-12) games in Northern California. I played in those games for years, and I saw exactly one hand where there was no flop. I can probably count the number of heads-up hands on the flop on one hand. That said, I understand not every low limit game is like that. However,the ones that are not tend to fit quite nicely into the straqtegies and tactics found in HFAP by Slansky and Malmuth. Lee wrote his book to address situations in very loose games that the felt were not covered completely in S&M. Indeed, they added many pages on this siubject in their "21st Century Edition." BarryT | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, Brian462, 8. Sep 2003 13:19 | ||
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| Well coincendently I bought that as well this weekend and after I finish Caro's book of tells (quite the eye opener) I will delve into it and look forward to my continuing education. I do have one question though Barry T. If and when you do play low limits do you use Lee's strategy have you altered it all? | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, Barry T, 8. Sep 2003 13:36 | ||
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| Hi. I need to be honest here. I do not remember all of the stuff in Lee's book. My style is an evolution of many books and hours at the table. And it far more oriented to particular players than it is to a strategy. Which is how it should be. The books give you excellent guidelines for winning, but you need to adapt things so you are comfortable. I know I play a lot tighter than Lee recommends in most games, including low limit ones. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, Michael C, 8. Sep 2003 14:00 | ||
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| This was one of my first books - I read it so many times the binding broke and I bought a new copy. I found it very interesting. However, in SF Bay Area low limit usually 8-10 see the flop with almost any two cards. So, often you are up against 2 pair (J2) so top pair and top kicker (AKK) is often not that good. Very good book for beginners. | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, chasepoker, 8. Sep 2003 18:16 | ||
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| The binding on mine went very quickly as well, hey Barry T can you ask Lee to put stronger glue on his spine ( just kidding ). I would say that if you play low limit on line ( which i know a lot of people reading here do ) you might find Lee Jones is a little too loose pre flop and a little too tight after it for these games. I mentioned it here a few months ago but i really do believe there is a market out there for a book that addresses the new issues faced by today's player ( i have only been playing 4 years but can see the change in the past year ) mainly the amount of new players who are just starting out, like me, and who have read Slansky, Jones et al and can play solid by the book poker i believe that the future games are going to get tighter and tighter for a bit. Which poses a question to any people who have been playing for a long time does poker theory go in cycles ? Just rambling CP on 8. Sep 2003 14:00 Michael C wrote: > This was one of my first books - I read it so many times the binding broke and I bought a new copy. | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, gary ford, 20. Sep 2003 09:30 | ||
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| on 8. Sep 2003 18:16 chasepoker wrote: > The binding on mine went very quickly as well, hey Barry T can you ask Lee to put stronger glue on his > spine ( just kidding ). I would say that if you play low limit on line ( which i know a lot of people > reading here do ) you might find Lee Jones is a little too loose pre flop and a little too tight after it > for these games. The answer is yes. I've been around a long, long, time. Poker is a game of cycles and so is poker theory. In the beginning--drum roll, please---the good ole boy theory prevailed, then came the math theory espoused by S&M. ( no. not that kind ). The latest theory ( fad ) is raise, raise, raise, This is attractive to the young guns, while we old fogies sit around waiting for the nuts. Which is better?--- all of the above. IMO, experience will rule, eventually. In the meantime the dynamic growth of poker will result in great turbulence. Theories are great but experience will prevail. ( I hope !! )-- fuel the boom --Gary > > I mentioned it here a few months ago but i really do believe there is a market out there for a book that > addresses the new issues faced by today's player ( i have only been playing 4 years but can see the > change in the past year ) mainly the amount of new players who are just starting out, like me, and who > have read Slansky, Jones et al and can play solid by the book poker i believe that the future games are > going to get tighter and tighter for a bit. Which poses a question to any people who have been playing > for a long time does poker theory go in cycles ? > > Just rambling > CP > > on 8. Sep 2003 14:00 Michael C wrote: > > This was one of my first books - I read it so many times the binding broke and I bought a new copy. > > | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, timmer, 20. Sep 2003 16:14 | ||
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| Do you know what happens to young guns that just keep on firing especially if they don't get constant tuning or proper cleaning and maintenance? I do . They either wear out quickly or they get broken . The funny thing is the more complicated the mechanisms are the sooner they break . on 20. Sep 2003 09:30 gary ford wrote: > > . Poker is a game of cycles and so is poker theory. In > The latest theory ( fad ) is raise, raise, raise, This is attractive to the young > guns, while we old fogies sit around waiting for the nuts. Which is better?--- all of the above. IMO, > | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, noiseboy, 25. Sep 2003 15:25 | ||
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| I disagree, when it comes to tournaments at least aggression = good thing. | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, Jordan, 8. Sep 2003 13:43 | ||
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| I actually just got his book this weekend too and I thought it was pretty helpful. I agree with your comments about maniacs. I just typically tend to raise maniacs more when i'm pretty sure I have them beat (top pair best kicker) but I've learned you still have to be careful b/c even maniacs get lucky :) | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, Formless, 8. Sep 2003 14:22 | ||
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| I bought Lee Jones' book years ago and think it provides an excellent foundation for a beginning player. The concepts are good even for experienced players too at low limit games. I have not read Krieger's books but they are also reputed to be excellent. If you had to recommend a first poker book fof someone it's hard to recommend anything else, IMHO. I carried the book with me on trips and had it bedside for years. | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, Paul Stine, 8. Sep 2003 14:30 | ||
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| on 8. Sep 2003 12:15 Brian462 wrote: > I picked up Lee Jones's Low Limit Hold'em book this weekend and found in pretty > helpful, especially his thoughts on position. I didn't agree with everything > namely, he seems to over rate the "maniacs" tendenacy to play extremely poor > hands such as 7 - 2 o, or 9-3. In the games I have played in they are more > likely to play things like A, any or any two suited or any two > connectors...regardless of raises or position. > > My question for the forum is does anyone else who has read the book have any > other thoughts or comments that maybe helpful to think about. Sounds like your maniacs are not as manical as Lee's. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, Michael C, 8. Sep 2003 18:37 | ||
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| Well mine are; 69o and J2o both hit FH on the flop and beat me ! I had A9s (BB) and AJs (LP). on 8. Sep 2003 14:30 Paul Stine wrote: > on 8. Sep 2003 12:15 Brian462 wrote: > > I picked up Lee Jones's Low Limit Hold'em book this weekend and found in pretty > > helpful, especially his thoughts on position. I didn't agree with everything > > namely, he seems to over rate the "maniacs" tendenacy to play extremely poor > > hands such as 7 - 2 o, or 9-3. In the games I have played in they are more > > likely to play things like A, any or any two suited or any two > > connectors...regardless of raises or position. > > > > My question for the forum is does anyone else who has read the book have any > > other thoughts or comments that maybe helpful to think about. > > > Sounds like your maniacs are not as manical as Lee's. > > Paul Stine > College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, Schuster, 8. Sep 2003 16:40 | ||
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| I think he is a little loose with his raises before the flop. For example, I don't like to raise early with KQs. Likewise with middle position, AJo, ATo, 99, 88, QJs, KJs are all hands that I generally limp with, not raise. Jones also recommends raising in late position with A9o and A8s. A9o is a hand I don't really like to play at all, let alone come in for a raise with it, although I will occasionally limp if the game is right. I also don't like to limp with KXs in late position. Other than that, I think it's a solid foundation for playing in the typical low limit games. It helped me a lot when I was first starting out. Lee Lee | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, Flatout_Mainiac, 8. Sep 2003 18:03 | ||
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| I have to agree with Schuster here that the preflop play Lee Jones recommends is a little loose. For example, raising 88 from MP with 4 callers infront is not in my playbook. I do think the suggested play after the flop is essential right on and following the wisdom of "Look for a reason to fold" will pay for the book in a week. Actually, HEFAP and Lee Jones' book is never more than an arms reach from me while I'm online. | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, MozMan, 8. Sep 2003 17:10 | ||
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| I'll tell you this much: I have read this book probably half a dozen times already. I find it really helpful to go back and read it again when I start getting caught up in "fancy-play" syndrome. Fancy play doesn't work real well in low-limit games, and Jones will snap me back to reality. -Moz "That man is a Brownie-hound." | ||
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| Re: Thought on L. Jones LL Holdem, Michael C, 8. Sep 2003 18:44 | ||
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| As I said, I love this book. Now don't yell at me. I just got Phil Hellmuth's Play Poker Like a Pro (I had a $5 discount). I like the book. He lists a much simpler starting set of hands for beginners. AA-77, AK and AQ. Which is super tight. I tried it in a 3-6 game on Saturday and it worked. Must have been a good run of cards. Easier to fold and easier to play. But much slower. | ||
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