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Server Time: 9/5/2008 4:49:47 PM PACIFIC |
 Costing myself extrabets?, Brian462, 8. Sep 2003 11:57 | ||
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| Twice this weekend I ran into identical situations and think I may be able to play them more effectively. I limp in with j10 o and flop the nut straight both times but there is a 2 to a flush draw. Both games are low limt where player will stay in on many suited combinations so the flush is always a danger. Through my studying of various texts I have learned that you make the flush draws pay for drawing so on both occassions I raised. Neither flush ended up coming and the hands played with two opponents check calling to showdown. I believe that a more profitable play may have been to wait until forth when the betting is doubled so I can a) make them each put in two bets or fold and b) gage their reaction if the third suited card comes on forth, potentially saving myself a raise. My reasoning is that in low limits most players who are on a fush draw are not going to fold in LL to a raise so why not wait fot the additional information and get the extra bet. I ended up winning both post which ( one was a kill the other was a good size for 3-6) but I am starting to give a lot of thought of the extra bets either won or saved during a sitting as I believe this is most likely a large source or untapped potential profit. | ||
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| Re: Costing myself extrabets?, verb2752, 8. Sep 2003 12:20 | ||
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| Why question a winning play? You lead out and made them pay, they are sitting there knowing that you have a better hand than them. They are calling stations at that point and you know exactly the one out they have that can beat you, a lovely spot to be in poker. I don't see why they should get a free card after the flop. Reason being, that if they don't hit the flush card they need, they will just check to you anyway, and it is only one bet again for them to call for the River card. I say, make them pay for holding on their 4-8 of clubs or whatever it may be. You were 2 for 2 using that strategy, I say stay with it..... | ||
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| Re: Costing myself extrabets?, Brian462, 8. Sep 2003 12:48 | ||
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| Good point. Second guessing probably isn't a habit I want to start. I should clarify that in both situations there were two players besides me. One was betting into me which I raised. The other was the calling station. I know I have the bettor beat as he has a pair of kings with most likely no Q as there was no preflop raise. The other player would not be getting a free card but a "discounted" card if i did not raise. Also I don't think raising or not raising would effect the outcome either way as at that point the hand has been determined. I win or a flush hits. Waiting to raise would be another 3 big bets which depending on the time period or limit played could be significant. | ||
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| Re: Costing myself extrabets?, Andrew Wells, 8. Sep 2003 19:12 | ||
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| You don't know that it is going to get bet again into you on the turn. You also may be up against another powerful hand like a set, which you can take it to four bets on the flop with your made straight. I much prefer to put the money in on the flop when I know players are drawing, rather than waiting to see if a blank hits the turn. | ||
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| Re: Costing myself extrabets?, Pedro, 8. Sep 2003 13:07 | ||
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| You need to bet that hand free cards can be brutal, also when you flop the nut straight there will be people with 2 high pair if there was other good hands out there. So you will eventually find a raiser if QKA hits the board. Also in this kind of flop I will usually fold the flush draw. I find that even if I hit the flush the bets that it cost me to see it are to much for the odds to make up for it. You will lose money going after the flush in this situation. You always bet the nuts. If the board pairs up you will ofcourse have to check call or check fold. But by that time there will be enough money in the pot to justify calling. | ||
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| Re: Costing myself extrabets?, Nathaniel Brous, 8. Sep 2003 13:14 | ||
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| verb2752 wrote: Why question a winning play? <snip> It's actually a very good idea to question a winning play. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Costing myself extrabets?, Barry T, 8. Sep 2003 13:17 | ||
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| Hi. It is excellent that you are thinking this situation through even though you are winning with the play you are making. That is verey promising for your future as a poker player. The real answer is that it depends on your position relative to the drawers and the bettor. It you can rely on the bettor leading again (and I mean really rely on it), then your play of calling the flop and raising the turn has considerable merit, especially mathematically. This is especially true if you are in late position relative tot he player betting the flop. One problem with the play, though, as it related to JTo specifically, is the danger of other free cards not involving the flush. For example witht he flop is Q98, a ten or jack on the turn may make a hand like KJ or KT into a winner when that player (if behind you) might have folded had you raised. Very good thinking, though. Keep it up. BarryT | ||
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