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Server Time: 9/5/2008 4:56:45 PM PACIFIC |
 PLO is brutal, noiseboy, 8. Sep 2003 09:17 | ||
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| I was playing a bit of PLO at UB, and I'm totally new to this game. I was only at the .25/.50 table with a $50 buy-in and the average pot was over $30! I saw some that cleared $150.00. What are the bankroll requirements of this game? It seems like it's even a bigger game than NL hold'em. Also, considering it is such a loose game, is betting it all before the flop with your AAxx hands wise? I know you are a favorite over anybody but the other two AA's, but if you have several crazies who are willing to call with lesser hands, you can go broke pretty easily. I had some joker last night call down a forty dollar bet i made with AA's with a freakin pair of nines and caught two more nines for quads. Is limping more and seeing how the flop comes a better strategy for loose & crazy PLO? I had another crazy who called me all the way to the river when I flopped the nut flush. Even if the guy had a set, there's no way he had odds with me betting it all and us being heads up. I guess the craziness works both ways. Thanks for any PLO advice you guys might have! | ||
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| Re: PLO is brutal, 4 POKER, 8. Sep 2003 09:59 | ||
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| Hi, I don't think it "is" wise to bet extremely heavy pre-flop with AAxx because the two other cards in your hand are very, very, important, and.....depending on what your position is and how many players have already called in front of you, will make it harder for your hand to hold up. Having just two Aces in this game when accompanied by two rags is not my idea of being the favorite....not against a full field. In fact, if the other two cards were really crappy, say one of them was a 9, if you're not at least double suited here, and that's at BEST......I wouldn't even call a substantial bet, let alone come in for a really big raise. When you're out of position and/or, there is already too many in.......I think playing the hand could lead to trouble, as you will find, more often than not, that AA (rag, rag) plays poorly against too many opponents. Pick your spots wisely in this game before you enter the pot and if you're UTG or in MP, the much stronger your hand needs to be, and that requires for all four of your cards to work well with each other. AAxx is a much better steal hand from the right position. 4P- on 8. Sep 2003 09:17 noiseboy wrote: > I was playing a bit of PLO at UB, and I'm totally new to this game. I was only > at the .25/.50 table with a $50 buy-in and the average pot was over $30! I saw > some that cleared $150.00. What are the bankroll requirements of this game? It > seems like it's even a bigger game than NL hold'em. > > Also, considering it is such a loose game, is betting it all before the flop > with your AAxx hands wise? I know you are a favorite over anybody but the other > two AA's, but if you have several crazies who are willing to call with lesser > hands, you can go broke pretty easily. I had some joker last night call down a > forty dollar bet i made with AA's with a freakin pair of nines and caught two > more nines for quads. Is limping more and seeing how the flop comes a better > strategy for loose & crazy PLO? I had another crazy who called me all the way > to the river when I flopped the nut flush. Even if the guy had a set, there's > no way he had odds with me betting it all and us being heads up. I guess the > craziness works both ways. > > Thanks for any PLO advice you guys might have! | ||
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| Re: PLO is brutal, noiseboy, 8. Sep 2003 10:12 | ||
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| I guess a lot of pro's play in higher limit, tighter PLO games where if you can get in a big bet with your AAxx, you end up winning the pot right there, or you get heads up with a hand that is a dog (as is any hand that doesn't have two AA's in it). People like Phil Hellmuth say that if you can get all the money in before the flop with AAxx, you should ALWAYS do it, but I think that is peculiar to the types of games they play in where it is rarely multi-way. But in a loose game, it's probably better to just see a flop and hopefully hit something, because you don't really have anything at all when you miss, even against as few as two opponents. | ||
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| Re: PLO is brutal, 4 POKER, 8. Sep 2003 10:35 | ||
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| If PH thinks that you should "always" raise as much as you can preflop with AA and has no regard for the other two cards in his hand, and doesn't concern himself with how many players are already in the pot with him......than God bless him! After all, he is PH!! That play works against a much shorter field and in the right position to do so. And yes, when pots are rarely muti-way, that play will work better, as the hand will either hold up more often or the pot won't even be contested for, and he'll take it down pre-flop......but in the PLO that you'll be playing in....stick to your guns on what YOU feel will prove to work better for when you hold AA rag, rag......that's all I'm trying to say here. Keep track of those hands and see if they wind up being + or - in the long haul for this game. 4P- | ||
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| Re: PLO is brutal, noiseboy, 8. Sep 2003 11:05 | ||
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| The specific instance where I pushed all the money in with AAxx, the play worked perfectly, I ended up heads-up with a worse hand who shouldn't have been able to call; unfortunately, people get lucky after the flop so I'm now with you, and think it's wiser to try to outplay the fish AFTER I see a flop, even if I might have the better of it before the flop. It's a Sklansky idea that you should forgo a slighty favorable bet, if losing this bet prevents you from taking advantage of even more favorable bets later. Anyway, PH doesn't think you should get all the money in with AAxx if you expect a lot of people in, because you may be a collective dog. Mostly, he recommends that you do it when a big bet will narrow the field or win right there, so this seems correct, but perhaps it's not for the loose games where you can see a flop cheap, and get paid off handsomely when that A hits the flop or just dodge the hand if you miss. | ||
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| Re: PLO is brutal, 4 POKER, 8. Sep 2003 11:18 | ||
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| Okay......I was under the impression that he said to always raise regardless....whew!! (LOL). on 8. Sep 2003 11:05 noiseboy wrote: > The specific instance where I pushed all the money in with AAxx, the play worked perfectly, I ended > up heads-up with a worse hand who shouldn't have been able to call; unfortunately, people get lucky > after the flop so I'm now with you, and think it's wiser to try to outplay the fish AFTER I see a > flop, even if I might have the better of it before the flop. It's a Sklansky idea that you should > forgo a slighty favorable bet, if losing this bet prevents you from taking advantage of even more > favorable bets later. > > Anyway, PH doesn't think you should get all the money in with AAxx if you expect a lot of people > in, because you may be a collective dog. Mostly, he recommends that you do it when a big bet will > narrow the field or win right there, so this seems correct, but perhaps it's not for the loose games > where you can see a flop cheap, and get paid off handsomely when that A hits the flop or just dodge > the hand if you miss. | ||
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| Re: PLO is brutal, EC, 8. Sep 2003 13:04 | ||
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| OK, he has a subject line of "PLO is brutal" and NOBODY makes either an Arab/Israeli political comment or joke? I'm disappointed in all of you, really. I guess I have to do all the heavy lifting around here :) Eli on 8. Sep 2003 09:17 noiseboy wrote: > I was playing a bit of PLO at UB, and I'm totally new to this game. I was only > at the .25/.50 table with a $50 buy-in and the average pot was over $30! I saw > some that cleared $150.00. What are the bankroll requirements of this game? It > seems like it's even a bigger game than NL hold'em. > > Also, considering it is such a loose game, is betting it all before the flop > with your AAxx hands wise? I know you are a favorite over anybody but the other > two AA's, but if you have several crazies who are willing to call with lesser > hands, you can go broke pretty easily. I had some joker last night call down a > forty dollar bet i made with AA's with a freakin pair of nines and caught two > more nines for quads. Is limping more and seeing how the flop comes a better > strategy for loose & crazy PLO? I had another crazy who called me all the way > to the river when I flopped the nut flush. Even if the guy had a set, there's > no way he had odds with me betting it all and us being heads up. I guess the > craziness works both ways. > > Thanks for any PLO advice you guys might have! | ||
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| Re: PLO is brutal, stdioh, 9. Sep 2003 13:49 | ||
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| PLO is a game where you can be very unswingy, even with giant pots. Basically when you get a (wonderful) game like that, the pots are so big because players are chasing their draws to non-nut hands or nut draws without enough outs. When you get in there with hands like the nut straight with a nut flush draw or top set with a nut flush draw, you'll get paid off so massively by players on bottom set who tighten up or players with weaker flush draws and straight draws, that you'll do very well for yoursef. Sure, you'll get drawn out on, but the beauty of omaha is not having to pay a giant river bet when your hand goes South. Players who pay off holding the second nut flush on the river make the pots so big and in those huge pots, you'll be the winner. Playing PLO8 can be even more lucrative, when you'll get players calling pot sized bets on the turn with no shot at high and a nut low draw. When you've got a made high and a nut low draw yourself you eat these guys alive. | ||
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| Re: PLO is brutal, stdioh, 9. Sep 2003 13:50 | ||
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| I should mention that for me a good evening at UB in PLO8 games is making $100. A bad evening is anywhere from -100 to breaking even. I estimate that at any point when I sit I have about an 80% chance of making $100 before I lose $100. *BUT* I only sit in the *VERY* juicy games that get there. I'll play with .5-1 blinds only if the average pot is at least $60. | ||
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| As for AAXY, stdioh, 9. Sep 2003 13:55 | ||
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| If you picked something like AA6J without a suited ace, that's a pretty dicey holding. About the only way to win is to hit your set. When you do, you're likely to share it with a low. Something like any AA2 or AA3 is very playable in PLO8 though. Something like AAKT is just fine in PLO. AA double suited is a monster as is something like AA25 with a single suited ace in PLO8...though monster is a relative term. AA23 double suited is much better :) However, most AA hands are raiseable because you want to get heads up and know that there is likely only 1 other ace in somebody's hand to go with playable cards. Thus junk AA are good for stealing and isolating. Once you are heads up, the chance of your AA being good alone becomes reasonable. | ||
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| Re: PLO is brutal, sonic, 15. Sep 2003 05:48 | ||
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| I´m not sure if I read all the posts concentrating enough because I didnt see a mention of omaha high point count system. Im not much f a mathematic but it's easy to master with little excercise. Any of you familiar with it? It makes decisions to participate the game a hell lot easier. If you got 14-15 points on early pos. Its Ok to play and few points less are needed when in late pos. AA earns 9 points. If one ace is suited it earns 4 points more. If both are suited award 8 points to total. If there is straight potential you get more points as well. | ||
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| Re: PLO is brutal, ADAM THE EXPERT, 16. Sep 2003 01:43 | ||
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| Let's try to answer all your questions. ADAM is here. Question one, Yes! pot limit Omaha IS a bigger game than no limit hold em. But, on the internet, unfortunatly, we have NEITHER!!! These "people" have altered poker, to suit their own needs. As long as buy-in's are LIMITED, both IPLO, and INLHE are going to be the same "size", but the omaha will generate much more action. This is because, Most hands in Omaha, will LOOK good, or a least PLAYABLE, to the novice, even to the intermediate player. That's the difference. You put together a 7 and a 3, and even an IDIOT can SEE that that is NOT a hand. But in Omaha, really HORRIBLE hands LOOK as though they are something!!!!! The principle strength of a weak, or bad Aces hand, is being able to raise enough, so that no one (or MAYBE one player) will call. That is it's main equity. By the way, NO NO NO NO aces-nothing, is NOT a favorite over all other hands !!!!!!!!! A 5 6 7 8 double-suited, is favored over the AAxx hand!!!! And that's hot-and-cold!!! When you factor in how much money the Aces-nothing hand LOOSES when it is beaten, any other Well-coordinated hand, is preferable to aces- nothing. So, with this hand, either FOLD, or smooth call. Hope to hit a set, or aces full, and catch someone in with a smaller set, or catch two people in with one of the cards that the board is paired with. Rare? You bet, but so profitable when it happens. Pot Limit Omaha, is rather like being a sniper. A sniper doesn't just shoot anyone, he waits and waits, until the prime target is spotted, and he can shoot it, but the target's weapon, does'nt even have the range to hit him. Or, simply put, you are looking for a situation where your opponent has LITTLE or NO chance of beating you, before you put in a lot of money.. Next lesson, remember that in any big bet game (pot limit, no limit) all hands are relative, to your stack size, vrs your opponent's stack size. So, when you start out, with your small buy in, you can be a little looser, with starting hand requirements. But, If your double-though a few times, and are up against players who can match your chips, then you need to be much more careful. I was playing a local pot limit omaha game last week, and flopped Kings over aces, with a board of K K A. I had only two hundred dollars, as this club has a promotion, and during that time, there aren't many chips on the table. So, I went all in. Lost. Other guy had AA. There was NO indication that he had this hand. In the same game, I have had as much as $8000 in front of me. If I had a lot of chips, I would NOT have lost them. But for $200, it was worth it. So, everything is relative to stack size. Look for well-coordinate hands. Pot Limit Omaha High, is NOT forgiving of "three-leg" hands. ( 9 10 J 2) You need to have all four cards working, to maximize your chance of winning money. NOT the pot, MONEY. Remember, AA is only one SEGMENT of a starting hand. Just because you have them, does NOT mean that the hand is even PLAYABLE, much less raiseable. If you are not even suited on at least one of the aces, just call, and PRAY you flop AT LEAST a set. If it is raised before it gets to you, FORGET the stupid thing. The only time you would reraise, is if you think you can get everyone out, and you don't have a lot of chips. Then you can just bet whatever you have left on the flop, and hope for the best. But, MUCKING them, is always the best choice. With one suit, the hand is USUALLY playable. But with no suits, THROW THEM AWAY if it's any significant bet to you. | ||
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| Re: PLO is brutal, 4 POKER, 16. Sep 2003 02:39 | ||
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| ADAM, This post was very well thought out and pretty accurate as well. (there was just one minor error with your example, and that was the (A-5-6-7-8 holding).....too many cards there! Personally, I think high wrap straight cards with a suited Ace play much stronger; especially in a heads up match when flopping two pair can win you the pot, while also having redraws to the high straight. (A-K-Q-J suited for example). Anyway........It seems to me that you have had much experience with PL games and I look foward to what you have to say in the future on this topic as well. Good post all in all. You brought up some very important factors. 4P- on 16. Sep 2003 01:43 ADAM THE EXPERT wrote: > Let's try to answer all your questions. ADAM is here. > > Question one, Yes! pot limit Omaha IS a bigger game than no > > limit hold em. But, on the internet, unfortunatly, we have NEITHER!!! > > These "people" have altered poker, to suit their own needs. > > > As long as buy-in's are LIMITED, both IPLO, and INLHE are going > to be the same "size", but the omaha will generate much more > action. This is because, Most hands in Omaha, will LOOK > > good, or a least PLAYABLE, to the novice, even to the intermediate > player. That's the difference. > > You put together a 7 and a 3, and even an IDIOT can SEE that > that is NOT a hand. > > But in Omaha, really HORRIBLE hands LOOK as though they are > something!!!!! > > The principle strength of a weak, or bad Aces hand, is being able > to raise enough, so that no one (or MAYBE one player) will call. > > That is it's main equity. > > By the way, NO NO NO NO aces-nothing, is NOT a favorite over > all other hands !!!!!!!!! A 5 6 7 8 double-suited, is favored over > the AAxx hand!!!! And that's hot-and-cold!!! When you factor in > > how much money the Aces-nothing hand LOOSES when it is > beaten, any other Well-coordinated hand, is preferable to aces- > nothing. > > So, with this hand, either FOLD, or smooth call. Hope to hit > a set, or aces full, and catch someone in with a smaller set, > or catch two people in with one of the cards that the board is > paired with. Rare? You bet, but so profitable when it happens. > > Pot Limit Omaha, is rather like being a sniper. A sniper doesn't > just shoot anyone, he waits and waits, until the prime target is > spotted, and he can shoot it, but the target's weapon, does'nt > even have the range to hit him. > > Or, simply put, you are looking for a situation where your opponent > has LITTLE or NO chance of beating you, before you put in a lot > of money.. > > Next lesson, remember that in any big bet game (pot limit, no limit) > all hands are relative, to your stack size, vrs your opponent's stack > size. > So, when you start out, with your small buy in, you can be a little > looser, with starting hand requirements. But, If your double-though > a few times, and are up against players who can match your chips, > then you need to be much more careful. > > I was playing a local pot limit omaha game last week, and flopped > Kings over aces, with a board of K K A. I had only two hundred > dollars, as this club has a promotion, and during that time, there > aren't many chips on the table. > > So, I went all in. Lost. Other guy had AA. > > There was NO indication that he had this hand. > > In the same game, I have had as much as $8000 in front of me. > > If I had a lot of chips, I would NOT have lost them. But for $200, it > was worth it. > > So, everything is relative to stack size. > > > Look for well-coordinate hands. Pot Limit Omaha High, is NOT > forgiving of "three-leg" hands. ( 9 10 J 2) > > You need to have all four cards working, to maximize your chance > of winning money. > > NOT the pot, MONEY. > > Remember, AA is only one SEGMENT of a starting hand. Just > > because you have them, does NOT mean that the hand is even > > PLAYABLE, much less raiseable. > > If you are not even suited on at least one of the aces, just call, > and PRAY you flop AT LEAST a set. > > If it is raised before it gets to you, FORGET the stupid thing. > > The only time you would reraise, is if you think you can get everyone > out, and you don't have a lot of chips. > > Then you can just bet whatever you have left on the flop, and hope > for the best. > > But, MUCKING them, is always the best choice. > > With one suit, the hand is USUALLY playable. > > But with no suits, THROW THEM AWAY if it's any significant bet > > to you. | ||
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