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Server Time: 10/11/2008 6:25:48 AM PACIFIC |
 Was this really a terrible call?, jaustin, 8. Sep 2003 08:11 | ||
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| Not my hand, but the subject of much debate at a game I was watching. Final two tables of a live NL tourney in AC. 10 people left so they're on the bubble for the final table. UTG is smallest stack and goes all-in for about 7k (average stack ~32k) 1k/2k w/300 ante. SB is chip leader (w/ ~ 70k) and raises to ~34k. BB thinks about it for quite a while and goes all-in as well (~40k). SB calls. Button shows KQ, SB AKs, and BB QQ. No A or K and BB becomes new chip leader. The hand occurred before a break, during which one of the spectators (I assume he was a good player as he knew the other pro's playing & watching) berates the BB for making the call with QQ, saying it wasn't the right time to make that move and he should have waited for a better opportunity. The BB's defense was that he knew how the SB played. The other guy rips into him saying that there is no way he could know this as this was their first time playing together and had only seen a couple of his hands, and even if he had a read he shouldn't risk his tournament on QQ. I had started watching when they first started playing together (when the tourney went from 3 to 2 tables) and the only two hands the guy had shown were odd (went over the top all-in with K8s and called an all-in with Q8s, both times to beat Jon "World" Hennigan, the first time cracking his aces with a runner-runner flush). Was this really that bad of a call? It's a tough call to make, but I think if I were in the same spot I would have done the same thing. The money was much bigger for the top spots (64k, 32k, 16k, 10k, 6k ...) and it was a great chance to become chip leader. P.S. This was my first time watching a live tournament and for those who have only seen them on TV I would recommend it. You get much more of a feel for the game seeing every hand played (or raised and folded pre-flop in 90% of the time). Of course it helped that I had a great position and could see Hennigan's cards when he looked and gain insight into how a great player plays. | ||
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| Re: Was this really a terrible call?, verb2752, 8. Sep 2003 09:33 | ||
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| That's a tough call with Q-Q after the chip leader had already called and raised. This leaves you potentially busted out of the tourney at the time when you would want to make the final table. With 40K in chips, he was in good shape to do that. I would have folded the hand at that point, tough as it is, and hope the short stack got busted out. My gut feeling would have been that the SB may have called with A-10, A-J, A-K , K-K or something that might have outdrawn my Q's..... I would have had to swallow my pride and think about the cash at the end instead. | ||
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| Re: Was this really a terrible call?, verb2752, 8. Sep 2003 09:34 | ||
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| That's a tough call with Q-Q after the chip leader had already called and raised. This leaves you potentially busted out of the tourney at the time when you would want to make the final table. With 40K in chips, he was in good shape to do that. I would have folded the hand at that point, tough as it is, and hope the short stack got busted out. My gut feeling would have been that the SB may have called with A-10, A-J, A-K , K-K or something that might have outdrawn my Q's..... I would have had to swallow my pride and think about the cash at the end instead. | ||
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| Re: Was this really a terrible call?, Pedro, 8. Sep 2003 10:01 | ||
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| I have to agree the least you can do is put one of them on ace king. He gambled and won but the fact of the matter is the play was incorrect at the time. He got lucky no one had him beat already. A solid player would of folded the queen queen once he knew 2 strong hands were already going against each other. | ||
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| Re: Was this really a terrible call?, Easy E, 8. Sep 2003 10:51 | ||
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| you have a problem with the QQ calling the SB raise, after seeing two suited-card hands played by this person, but you don't have a problem with the AK not just calling and seeing the flop? The initial raise all-in- was it UTG or button? Jaustin said both, so I'm confused (unless he meant that UTG was "first to act", as in everyone else had folded?) Either way, raising to isolate from the SB is fine, but why be surprised when the BB reads it as such? Especially if the button raise could be seen as a steal? Also, another question- why not make a smaller raise with AK? Enough to make the BB think about it, but not enough to make it worth taking a shot to double-through (or at least do so by just calling, or going all-in just a few grand more?) just thinking out loud.... | ||
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| Re: Was this really a terrible call?, jaustin, 8. Sep 2003 11:05 | ||
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| Sorry, he was in first position, not dealer. After typing the post initially with him as the Button, I realized that I was remembering incorrectly and forgot to change the second instance when I referred to him at Button to UTG. I agree about the raise with AK. I would have just called (or made a modest re-raise) as most hands would probably fold anyway, expect those that would have an advantage over you. He was new to no-limit and just pushed all his 1k chips in without thinking what the amount was (he just assumed BB would fold and he would get heads-ups with UTG figuring he was making a last stand on Ax or two high cards). | ||
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| Re: Was this really a terrible call?, 4 POKER, 8. Sep 2003 11:29 | ||
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| I agree with that thinking *much* more than I do with the AK suited committing all of his chips when he doesn't have to. The call by the Q-Q was put in a tough spot, BUT who's to say that the BB or the button didn't *also* have a really good hand. Although AK suited is a great hand, under these circumstances, why would he committ his entire stack of 70K when the initial all-in bet was only 7K?.....that just doesn't make much sense to me. 4P- on 8. Sep 2003 10:51 Easy E wrote: > you have a problem with the QQ calling the SB raise, after seeing two suited-card hands played > by this person, but you don't have a problem with the AK not just calling and seeing the flop? > > > The initial raise all-in- was it UTG or button? Jaustin said both, so I'm confused (unless > he meant that UTG was "first to act", as in everyone else had folded?) > Either way, raising to isolate from the SB is fine, but why be surprised when the BB reads > it as such? Especially if the button raise could be seen as a steal? > > Also, another question- why not make a smaller raise with AK? Enough to make the BB think > about it, but not enough to make it worth taking a shot to double-through (or at least do so by > just calling, or going all-in just a few grand more?) > > just thinking out loud.... | ||
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| Re: Was this really a terrible call?, shorn, 9. Sep 2003 07:38 | ||
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| I think the QQ is a must fold too. The timing is the biggest key to it. You need to be the aggressor late in the tourny, not the caller. The SB was right to make the BB decide for all his chips in order to try and isolate the UTG player. The BB called and his 53% hand held up. I would have folded hoping that the UTG player lost, made the final table in decent chip position and then become aggressive when I was first to act. | ||
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| Re: Was this really a terrible call?, stdioh, 9. Sep 2003 13:58 | ||
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| The SB raised by too much. He should have raised it because he wants to isolate the baby and anybody with anything but KK or AA should fold there and let him do just that. KK should raise back a small raise to see where he is and then fold to a big reraise. AA should push in there and then. When the SB came in for such a gigantic raise, the BB should have folded everything except AA (or possibly KK if the SB was known as a total idiot). Thus there were two mistakes made. | ||
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