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Server Time: 8/20/2008 5:08:32 AM PACIFIC |
 "Survivial" in No-Limit Tourneys: Is It Possible?, Bart Mann, 8. Sep 2003 06:33 | ||
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| I have a Texas Hold 'em satellite coming up in a few weeks, where I hope to win a $1,000 seat in a major tournament later this fall. The details of the satellite are pretty straightforward. $30 to enter gets you $500 in chips. If you fall below $500 in chips during the first hour you can exercise a $30 rebuy, which will get you an additional $1,000 in chips. You can rebuy as many times as you fall below $500, but only in the first hour. At the end of the first hour you have the option for one $30 add-on, which gives you an additional $2,000 in chips. At the start of the second hour, you play the chips you have in front of you--with no more rebuys or add-ons. It sounds like they average about 230 players per satellite, with an alternate list of another 40 or so. As soon as each of the first 40 people drop out of the tournament, they are replaced immediately with an alternate who starts with his/her original $500 in chips. In order to win a seat in the satellite, you have to finish Top 20. So here's my question. I've been reading quite a few of the tournament strategy threads lately, and the vast majority of them recommend "just surviving until the later rounds when your bets actually mean something." I've also read something similar in Doyle's book. But in all seriousness, I have two questions: 1) If this is a widely held no-limit tournament strategy, then how do you play conservative and "just survive" in an environment where everyone else is trying to do the same thing? 2) If you play conservative and "just survive" in the early rounds, how do you enter the late rounds of the tournament with a big enough stack to make something happen, without getting blinded to death? I'd love some advice from some of you tournament sages out there, who have been there and done that. Thanks in advance for your help. | ||
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| Re: "Survivial" in No-Limit Tourneys: Is It Possible?, Pedro, 8. Sep 2003 06:42 | ||
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| Well first off your going to have a lot of people making strong moves early since there are rebuys. So surviving may be the wrong tactic. If you believe you have the best hand don't be afraid of losing. If you play scared you will lose I guarantee that much. The truth is the later rounds are important and thats where you win the tournament, but a good start doesn't hurt. Placing in the top 20 with all those players won't be easy a lot of good players lose early. You will need luck and you will need to play very well. Good luck Play agressive when you have the hand. | ||
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| Re: "Survivial" in No-Limit Tourneys: Is It Possible?, verb2752, 8. Sep 2003 07:53 | ||
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| You will be surprised by how many people make loose calls or go all-in without the nuts..... There will be a lot of players that will be conservative and let everyone else bang it out early. Because, after the first hour, when re-buys are over, that is when you (a better player) can take advantage of others because they do not have the re-buy as a crutch. Some of the weaker players play so many pots that they will eventually call off their chips to you when you get a hand and play them aggressively. You will know who they are, you should also be able to tell by then who the stronger players are and who to be careful with when you enter a pot with them. Good Luck.... | ||
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| Re: "Survivial" in No-Limit Tourneys: Is It Possible?, Bart Mann, 8. Sep 2003 08:26 | ||
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| Thanks for the reply. I have a follow-up question for you, because you brought up a good point. In your experience, when the re-buys and add-ons are over after that first hour, how do the dynamics of the game change for each style of player? I'm going to guess that the loose amateur players tighten up (faced with elimination and no more rebuys) and the tighter experienced players loosen up and start to make their moves. Does that sound right to you? | ||
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| Re: "Survivial" in No-Limit Tourneys: Is It Possible?, verb2752, 8. Sep 2003 09:12 | ||
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| Bart, My experience has been that the lesser players play a little more scared after the rebuy's are over and end up folding hands when heads up to an agressive bettor. You can win many hands and chips off of them that way. Many are scared to go all-in as well, as they just want to last, where the better players are now looking towards cashing and bulding their stacks. You will be able to see who the better players are just by how they bet into the pots. You rarely see an inexperienced player lead into a pot with an aggressive bet, its mostly a "limp in" or they just go all-in with a monster hand. The better players make an aggressive bet because they know they can play pre/post flop well. If you find yourself heads up against a lesser or scared player who just limped in or made a small bet to lead in, raise him over the top or wait for the flop and raise hard and they will most likely fold, if they come over the top they have the nuts or a high pair, and you can get away from the hand. A better player will make moves on you and you will have much tougher decisions to make, that is when feel will play a huge part for you, you will see your instincts go into overdrive when you are playing a good player, it is fun to battle with them & it will make you better in the process. | ||
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| Re: "Survivial" in No-Limit Tourneys: Is It Possible?, Jetfixer, 8. Sep 2003 09:13 | ||
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| In the few NLHE B&M multi's Ive been in, it's the experienced regulars that have gone wild in the first round. Seems like they are more willing than the more 'amatuer' players to keep pumping money into the re-buys. The strategy for these types seems to me to be try to get lucky early with big moves..you can just rebuy if you fail. If successfull they have a stack lead that allows them to work the table. The key being that they have the expertise to leverage that stack against the table. | ||
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| Re: "Survivial" in No-Limit Tourneys: Is It Possible?, SmellsLikeVictory, 8. Sep 2003 12:53 | ||
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| Even in the rebuy, survival is still important. Look at it from an EV point of view. Is it +EV to gamble, just beacuse, "WTF, if I lose, I can rebuy". It's not +EV to rebuy five times being super loose-aggressive. Loosen up some, but don't get carried away. You still want a big hand when you put all your chips in. For these rebuy tourneys, as others have said, there will be a lot of gambling early. However, I don't think you should necessarily get caught up in the "all in mania" that sometimes occurs with the weaker players. Better to wait for a solid hand and bust the other's "gambling" all-in bets. Don't take the attitude of "WTF, if I lose, I can rebuy". That's a losing attitude, IMHO. Save the rebuys for when you have the best hand, get your money in, and get drawn out on. Obvioulsly, don't hesitate to push in when you have a big hand that's vulnerable to draws, as you do have that crutch if drawn out on. But don't commit all your chips to negative EV plays just because you can rebuy. As far as rebuying yourself, I like to rebuy the second I dip below the minimum threshold for rebuys. Don't wait until you're out of chips. Chips are power in NLHE and you can use all the extra chips you can get. When you go all-in with the nuts, you want to gain as much as possible from the lemmings saying "WTF, if I lose, I can rebuy". Doubling through on T990 after you've rebought when you dipped to 490 is better than sitting on T300 in chips, and look to see AA. Of course, take the add-on, nearly everyone does in these things, unless you've accumulated just a mountain of chips. After that the real tourney begins, and hopefully, you've taken just one rebuy and the add-on for a minimal investment in the event. Don't be the guy who rebuys 5 times "gambooling", an all too common occurrance. | ||
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| Re: "Survivial" in No-Limit Tourneys: Is It Possible?, Bart Mann, 8. Sep 2003 13:12 | ||
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| Funny you should mention getting the rebuy right away. First hand of the tournament I'm in the BB and muck to a raise. I take my rebuy money out ASAP and call the floor guy over. Next hand in the small blind I get dealt AT o/s and make two pair on the flop. Guy next to me goes all in with AK post-flop, and I call and double-up. Floor guy shows up with my rebuy just as I'm stacking my new chips. Just missed it. Then I bought the add-on at the end of the hour. Cheap tournament for me--60 bucks total,when I think the average paid was over $120. Unfortuntely, finishing 95th out of 270+ was not good enough for the seat . . . | ||
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| Re: "Survivial" in No-Limit Tourneys: Is It Possible?, noiseboy, 8. Sep 2003 14:52 | ||
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| 1) The "play-tight-early" strategy assumes, as is usually the case, that there are many loose players around in the early rounds, and many multi-way pots being played. If you were in a tourney where everyone was using this strategy, then you would progress directly to the middlegame strategy of "win pots with unbridled aggression". 2) In the early rounds, if an opportunity comes along where you have a premium hand, you often get paid off handsomely by the loosies if you hit a flop, so if you do get any hands early, you will likely build a stack. If you don't get any hands early, then you have to go into "find either a good hand or a good opportunity", ie, plan B. Anyway, just because you are playing tight early doesn't mean you won't take a flop to a small pair if there are a lot of people in an unraised pot, if a good opportunity comes along to chip up, by all means take it. | ||
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| Re: "Survivial" in No-Limit Tourneys: Is It Possible?, stdioh, 9. Sep 2003 14:02 | ||
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| The add-on there is so gigantic that it takes away from the value of loose play for easy rebuys. Thus in such a game you want to play very tight, rebuy immediately before the add-on if you are under $500, then take the $2000 add-on. It isn't worth risking your $500 to try to double up early and have a positional lead when you get to stuff $2000 on after 1 hour. | ||
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| Re: "Survivial" in No-Limit Tourneys: Is It Possible?, Bart Mann, 9. Sep 2003 14:20 | ||
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| I think this is a great point (the original question in this thread was mine, by the way), but I have one more question. I played in this same satellite a few weeks ago--the one upcoming is the third of four--and was surprised by the number of people who were able to build monster stacks in the first hour. There were guys at the end of the first hour who had $7K to $8k in chips, whereas I was sitting there with my original $500 and about $700 more that I had earned. Unfortunately, I never went below $500 so I could purchase a rebuy. So when the add-on came around, these guys were near or over $10K--and there I sat with my measly $3,200. It seems to me there's a fine line between just making it through the first hour, and making it through with enough chips to make some noise. But maybe $3,200 isn't that bad of a spot to be in after Hour 1. What do you think a "good" chip position would be after the first hour? What should I shoot for? | ||
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| Re: "Survivial" in No-Limit Tourneys: Is It Possible?, stdioh, 11. Sep 2003 15:47 | ||
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| You rarely see the guys who made $10K in the first hour holding on to it. It is very rare for a good player to be that lucky. These are usually punters who can't do anything. You get 50 of them in your tourney and 45 of them are gone in 1 hour. 5 of them have giant stacks. If these guys want to play risky like that, it isn't so bad if they tighten up once they get the giant stacks, but the sad fact is that they get their heads kicked in over the next couple of hours. | ||
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