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Server Time: 8/20/2008 3:23:35 AM PACIFIC |
 Question from ML HE Poker, Angel, 8. Sep 2003 01:05 | ||
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| This question regards a problem I found in Middle Limit Holdem Poker by Brier and Ciaffone - Chapter 15 problem #5 pg 78 The game is $30/60 and you are in the BB with AKo. A MP opens with a raise and it's folded around to you and you call. Flop is 7-5-4- rainbow. The problem set says you check, he bets, what do you do? This wasn't a contrived problem but an actual hand so the question is sound even if the check was an error but should one check a rainbow flop against one opponent while holding two overcards? This is how a steal-flop is defined, but your opponent raised pre-flop - do you check-call, check-fold, bet or semi-bluff check-raise? Now I wasn't given any information about the MP player - so let's say we just arrived and know nothing about him. Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, Swagman, 8. Sep 2003 02:21 | ||
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| This is one of those masterbatory hands that so many hold'em player whine about. Hands like these are really what has made Hold'em unappealing to me. Its all sixes, but I really can't justify taking this hand any further when it is very likely your beaten by a pair of overcards. Some might advocate a raise to see if he just calls with his A,Q, blah blah, as if that 'call' means a damn thing because your heads-up, and odds just not worth staying in when he can catch that Queen or Jack or whatever the moron might be holding with his Ace. But mainly I saying this becauase I am never and I mean never hanging on to a bigslick to the river if there is any action at all ever again. Did I say never again? Thanks for listening. | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, Pedro, 8. Sep 2003 04:47 | ||
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| You can make it two bets by raising him after he bets. The rest of the way it depends on the player. If he is a strong player he may also reraise with nothing believing you are bluffing. If he just calls and checks the next round and nothing hit for you I believe the right move is to check he may be strong and wants you to keep bluffing at it. Also the idea of the raise was to buy you a card so you could see river card and hopefully catch. Now if there is a flush draw and flush hits I believe a bluff is appropiate especially after raising and then checking on turn he will believe you made your flush. Or if the 4th card to a straight hits you may also bluff at it. If you actually do catch your overcards then you have to be careful especially if he comes out betting. If the ace comes you got to be careful with a hand like a7 or a5. People will play those hands so i wouldnt raise if the ace comes if ther king comes your more safe. As I dont know many people who will play the king 7. If he comes out betting on the turn after just calling your raise and nothing hit I say you should just fold. | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, Swagman, 8. Sep 2003 05:18 | ||
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| That's along way for heads-up to go just to crash and burn. Isn't it? That's problem with hold'em Big blind small blind structure... Some hotshot raises with his AQo late causing everyone else to fold, but those premium hands, which now makes it maybe 1 to 2 players other then yourself to see the flop. Then 1 of those players is gonna fold because they don't like the flop, and your left heads up with some moron which makes the whole risking another bet thingy just not appealing because the cost of losing is greater then the prize of winning. Reason never have taken poker seriously because my daytime job is easier then becoming a pro. A lot easier. My job grind is easier then the alertness and dedication to stay on the cards. The study it takes to constantly improve your game. The inherent risk of getting a run of bad cards and worrying about whether or not your gonna make rent. Keep your daytime job its probably better than you think. | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, Swagman, 8. Sep 2003 05:28 | ||
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| You know what that just bologne you advocating making it at least 3 bets to go on nothing. nothing. did I repeat myself? You heads-up there is nothing that can make this hand attractive to you. Really he should have never called the raise in the first place because it puts him heads up. Its not even worth the risk of an additional bet. Even with A,A heads up I can offer you a better chance of winning in a different game of chance at any near by casino. It's really silly really it is. Thanks. | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, Schuster, 8. Sep 2003 06:11 | ||
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| Are you suggesting you should fold your blind to a raise in a heads up situation with AKo? I just want to make sure I understand you right. Lee | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, Pedro, 8. Sep 2003 06:13 | ||
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| I am just giving advice on how to win that hand, did I say he should quit his job??? The fact is if he has nothing the raise will slow him down maybe even fold him. Your ace king is not nothing when 3 blank hits it may be the best hand. So your not betting on nothing. The chances of him having a high pocket pair is about 1% of the hands. So the raise is justified and may scare him off. | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, Swagman, 8. Sep 2003 16:52 | ||
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| So err your willing to play this hand on a coin toss, because thats what it is. You getting even money plus the SB in this hand on a coin toss. Because thats what you have about 50 to 54% chance of winning this hand at best hypothetically, and you wanna go out shooting. When you can save all that money your dumping on a future hand that will win you money. Hey all you new players out there that have been thinking of playing poker. Your future is looking bright. | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, Schuster, 8. Sep 2003 06:16 | ||
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| I would have bet the flop right there. It's likely you have the best hand. If you check raise him though, he'll likely call and then you're committed to betting the turn. You don't know where you stand as much as if you had just bet out. I would probably fold here if I checked first just because the pot is small. Even though you may have the best hand, if you don't, you're going to be hardpressed to hit one of your overcards. With slick against a middle position raiser, if you're going to play the flop, you almost have to go to the river just with AK high because you're decided on the flop that your hand is probably best. I'd rather just avoid it and go to the next hand. Lee | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, grant pittman, 8. Sep 2003 06:29 | ||
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| Hi Angel This poker "problem" is a function of your opponent and what you feel he will raise with and do after the flop. I do not agree with books that have a "If this......then do this" theme without much consideration to the texture of the situation. Poker is a game of judging and adjusting to your opponents....What they do and how they will react to given situations! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 8. Sep 2003 01:05 Angel wrote: > This question regards a problem I found in Middle Limit Holdem Poker by Brier > and Ciaffone - Chapter 15 problem #5 pg 78 > > The game is $30/60 and you are in the BB with AKo. A MP opens with a raise and > it's folded around to you and you call. Flop is 7-5-4- rainbow. The problem > set says you check, he bets, what do you do? > > This wasn't a contrived problem but an actual hand so the question is sound > even if the check was an error but should one check a rainbow flop against one > opponent while holding two overcards? This is how a steal-flop is defined, but > your opponent raised pre-flop - do you check-call, check-fold, bet or semi-bluff > check-raise? Now I wasn't given any information about the MP player - so let's > say we just arrived and know nothing about him. Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, Formless, 8. Sep 2003 08:29 | ||
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| I just got ML HE Poker this week, it is excellent. I would often reraise preflop and bet out I think, but that isn't the question. I'd like to show some aggression on the flop normally. I wonder which gives you a better chance of making the opponent fold either on the flop or later: checkraising, or betting out? Or maybe check-calling the flop and betting out the turn is OK too. In any case your hand is probably around 6:5 to be best on the flop I remember one particular hand when I was fairly new to 30-60. I had AQs and a tricky, aggressive player raised me from mid position. Flop is mice, I checkraise the flop with A hi to see where I am at, she calls. I bet the turn and she raises me. I've decided there is no way I am laying down here because she plays the turn so aggressively so often, I call. Brick river, check check, she wins with AK no pair. I had never seen anyone play AK so aggressively at lower limits. It was a learning experience. After rereading the question I can now see why they recommend check-calling. Even if you were to calculate that you are a small fave, you are out of position and don't want to get into a raising war headsup vs. a pocket pair while you are still drawing. | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, noiseboy, 8. Sep 2003 15:53 | ||
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| I would usually three bet before the flop with my AK, unless the MP player was really tight. Then, if he misses the flop, he will often check to me and I will often bet the "nut non-pair" and my position in this situation. If he's willing to bet right into you after you 3-bet the flop, then you know he has something (unless he's aware you make this play, or a tricky player who might be making a play back at you). If he capped preflop, you are through with the hand unless you hit something to it. | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, Schuster, 8. Sep 2003 16:33 | ||
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| All good points noise! There are times when my position and the opponent causes me to 3 bet with AK. However, in the big blind facing a middle position raiser, I'm less inclined to do so because I don't have that position. I think you appear stronger if you just call the raise and then bet the flop. If you hit, you probably have the best hand. If the flop is rags, he is more likely to have overcards than an overpair, and you've got the "nut" overcards. Just be careful, there are players who will raise an unimproved AK on the turn after just calling the flop (they might just have the same hand) because they are aware that you can make these kinds of plays with unimproved overcards. Then it gets tough! What do you think about 3 betting from the blind, noise? Lee | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, noiseboy, 8. Sep 2003 17:02 | ||
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| I'm more likely to 3-bet if he's in MP or later, because there are a lot of hands worse than yours that an MP player will raise with. 3-betting also has the advantage of making that player think twice about messing with your blinds. If he raises you after you have three bet then bet out the flop, then you have a decision to make. It takes a really aggressive player to raise you on a bluff after you came over him preflop. Most players on a steal or who came in for a raise because they had something medium and were the first one in(semi-steal) will give up when you come back at them strong like that. However, I would only recommend this play, which has stolen me many pots in tourneys, if you know the player and have a feel for whether it will work in advance. Some players, you might not even want to 3-bet in the first place. Heads-up play is difficult, and I'm no master of it yet. | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, shorn, 9. Sep 2003 07:32 | ||
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| Unfortunately, you act first after the flop from the BB, so he gets to decide what to do after you check or bet. For that reason, I don't like to define my AK pre-flop because if you three bet and then bet that flop, he will know for certain that you don't have the str8 or a set. He will likely put you on overcards. Sure, if he is weak-tight he may fold QQ of KK for fear that you have bullets, but I doubt it. I think the CR on the flop is more effective and gives him much less information. | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, Andrew Wells, 8. Sep 2003 20:33 | ||
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| How you handle this is going to depend quite a bit on what your opponent thinks you are capable of playing for a raise heads-up out of the blind. If you have shown that you usually defend your blind, then a checkraise on the flop is going to be credible when you lead on the turn. If however you are not defending your blind too often, then it's going to be harder for your opponent to believe such a flop helped you. Now you just get raised on the turn by a tough player, or more likely get called by an average one. I'm going to generally flat call the flop and see the turn unless the preflop raise came from a tight unimaginative player. What I am looking for if I don't catch top pair - is something that helps the board enough so that if my opponent is holding an unimproved pocket pair, he will have a reason to fold. I think a semibluff on the turn is much more successful when you have someone thinking that you may have slowplayed a set, or hit a straight with a small pocket pair. Against someone who will never take a free card heads-up, I may even checkraise the turn with that AK. If you always let go of big slick when you miss the flop from the blinds, you are probably playing too tight for games above 10-20 against only a middle position raiser. | ||
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| Re: Question from ML HE Poker, shorn, 9. Sep 2003 07:29 | ||
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| If i stay in this hand, I would semi-bluff check raise here. You probably can get him to lay down AQ, AT, AJ, all potential MP pre-flop raising hands. And, you represent either an overpair or a 6 so if a scarecard comes (making the str8) and you bet out, he is more likely to fold the big pairs on the turn. If you just check call the flop ( the worst option in my mind), he won't fold to a turn raise and will likely see the river. It really depends on the opponent, but since you are in the blind it is more likely that you called his raise with middle cards making your bluff more believable. | ||
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