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decision please...how did I play it?, EC, 6. Sep 2003 23:26
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OK, here's a hand I won tonight, but I'd like to know if you think I played it right or just got lucky.

Game was 6-12 HE at my B&M. Fairly typical 6-12 game. I'm UTG with QQ, I raise. Player to my left calls, button and BB call.

Flop comes down 765, with two diamonds (my queens are black). BB checks, I bet, next guy raises. Other two players fold, I call the raise. I'm not worried about him having a straight, he wouldn't have kicked the other players out if he did. More likely that he had a 7 or an overpair that he was protecting. He was fairly new, so I really didn't know what kind of player he was, but he seemed rational.

Turn comes another 7- now I'm a bit worried. I check, he bets, I call.

River comes an Ace, no flush. I decide to bet into it representing the ace, since I did raise pre-flop from early position. Other player agonizes for a minute, then mucks KK face up. So my bluff worked and he laid down a hand that would beat me, but I would like some opinions if I played this right.

The way I saw it on the river is that betting was likely the only way I could win the hand, unless he had something like JJ, TT, 99 etc. I didn't know if he was capable of folding trips, but I do know if he raised me on the river I would have folded (thinking he had something like A7). I didn't expect to see KK- after all he didn't reraise me pre-flop.

I also figured that betting into him on the river after he raised me on the flop and I check-called the turn, should send red lights flashing all over the place.

To make him feel better I told him afterward that I had him beat, which I guess is technically true since I beat him...

Any comments on my play here?

Eli
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Re: decision please...how did I play it?, 4 POKER, 7. Sep 2003 00:08
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Hi,

I'd like to know what hand you gave him on the flop that you would chose to just call his raise instead of raising him back. With a board of
7-6-5; when you bet and than get raised here, that is where I would have thought, "what could be some of my opponents likely hands"? Okay.....you thought he might have an overpair to the board, correct? (perhaps 9-9, 10-10, or J-J). You didn't know him very well so you probably weren't certain if he would be the type of player to raise you with top pair. If he did hold a 7, than when the turn brought another 7, he would now have trips. Did you stop to think that he could have held a 7, which would now beat you here?.....Or did you just put him on an overpair, but not one that was higher than your pocket Q-Q's? If so.....than why wouldn't you play back at him on the flop or the turn?

It seems to me that somewhere during this hand, you got lost. On the flop (after you get raised) is where you have to put your opponent on the possible holdings that he may have. If it were me, I would have played back at him immediately. If you just gave him a pocket pair higher to the highest card on the flop, than once the 7 comes on the turn, you should be betting your hand here, or check-raising it to see where you stand, and to also not allow him to draw out on you too cheaply. That's IF you didn't put him on trip 7's. But you clearly stated that you DID get worried when the 7 hit on the turn....so why would you now bet the river without improving? If you put him on a pocket pair, then you played your own hand too weak (IMO).....If you put him on having trip 7's, than your river bet could have very easily cost you two bets; (and it's a bet that you shouldn't be making, but perhaps, if you're not sure of this players tendencies, than a check-call on the river may have been better). If for some reason he held an Ace, don't you think he would have at least called you here?


I think that *because* you played your hand so timidly on the flop and the turn....*was* the reason why he folded his K-K because the only time that you chose to show aggression was on the river. I disagree with your play here,(flop, turn and river), because your actions and reactions didn't fit in with your thought process on your opponents holding.

Yes, your lead out bet on the river DID work to your advantage; and him not re-raising you coming in with his pocket Kings was a mistake......but both of those things here are besides the point IMHO.





4P-
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Re: decision please...how did I play it?, flintsword, 7. Sep 2003 19:21
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I think I follow your reasoning 4 POKER and agree with you. It seems unlikely to me that a player holding 77, 66, or 55 would call after an UTG raise, but an excessively loose, aggressive player might. That is the first consideration: Is the caller very loose and very aggressive?

Secondly I think EC should bet out aggressively, very much for the reasons you outlined, but also to maintain momentum. Let us not forget that the river Ace caused the kings to fold. His opponent must have put EC on AA (6 possible hands), QQ (6 possible hands), JJ (6 possible hands), AK (8 possible hands), or AQ (16 possible hands), a total of 42 possible hands. The river ace, as you can see, makes 30 of the 42 possible hands winners, .... so EC's opponent folded his kings.

It is a fascinating situation EC, thank you for bringing it up. Any holes in my quick analysis 4 POKER?
flintsword
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Re: decision please...how did I play it?, 4 POKER, 7. Sep 2003 21:14
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on 7. Sep 2003 19:21 flintsword wrote:
> I think I follow your reasoning 4 POKER and agree with you. It seems unlikely to me that a
> player holding 77, 66, or 55 would call after an UTG raise, but an excessively loose,
> aggressive player might. That is the first consideration: Is the caller very loose and
> very aggressive?
>
> Secondly I think EC should bet out aggressively, very much for the reasons you outlined,
> but also to maintain momentum. Let us not forget that the river Ace caused the kings to
> fold. His opponent must have put EC on AA (6 possible hands), QQ (6 possible hands), JJ (6
> possible hands), AK (8 possible hands), or AQ (16 possible hands), a total of 42 possible
> hands. The river ace, as you can see, makes 30 of the 42 possible hands winners, .... so
> EC's opponent folded his kings.
>
> It is a fascinating situation EC, thank you for bringing it up. Any holes in my quick
> analysis 4 POKER?
> flintsword


.....No leaks in the way "you" think ,(especially when it comes to math, and I for one would never even question you on that....no way Jose')! But, the only hole that I see is....you gave credit to a player for folding his KK because you just naturally assumed that he took all of that into consideration! Had this player took the size of the pot into factor......I think the outcome would (perhaps?) have been different. (Thoughts)?

4P-
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Re: decision please...how did I play it?, Pedro, 7. Sep 2003 22:13
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I have to agree the pot odds justified a call. However if the KK had raised the preflop like he should have the QQ wouldn't have been able to bluff so easily. Another thing is if the KK wasn't in the blind I wouldn't worry about him having a 7. So I would of maintained strength with the QQ on the turn, maybe you representing the 7 to the kings. Has to slow him down. You might of won the pot right there. He might see another card hoping to catch his king on river but when the ace flop then you have momentum a bet there will easily win the pot.

However some players will make the call regardless just cause they have king king so know who your opponets are.

The fact of the matter is King King beats Queen Queen so even if you play it perfect you may still lose. KK should have called the last bet simply because the money in the pot justified the call.
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Re: decision please...how did I play it?, flintsword, 8. Sep 2003 00:16
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You are right 4 POKER, just because I think in terms of percentages and hands is no guarantee others do. There is a very large group of poker players that are hypnotised by aces, and when an aces falls, the world collapses. Maybe not that dramatic, but you get my drift. In a tournament today, a player was grousing that his pair of kings were "an ace magnet" after an ace hit a flop that was heavily bet.

The math I did actually follows a common thought process in Paul Samuel's articles. I find myself calculating the of number of outstanding hands during play. It gives a new dimension to the figuring out what your opponent(s) have and allows you another measure on which to make a decision. I can think of one critical case recently that I used this. A big raise representing a str8 larger than mine (I had the ignorant str8 ...) got me to figuring out the possible hands he had preflop, adjusted by his post-flop betting. The sudden materialization of the key card in the family of hands he would hold gave me a percentage so small I decided to test it with a big reraise. He folded. If you haven't taken the time to really get into Paul Samuel's articles, I recommend it.

Actually, the amount on money in the pot requires a bet, under the principle that a lost bet can be made up in the short term, ... but a lost pot cannot be made up so easily.

A lost bet "nibbles" at your earn rate, ... but a lost pot guts your earn rate.
flintsword
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Re: decision please...how did I play it?, Angel, 7. Sep 2003 00:39
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Let me skirt your question and ramble:
There are 1326 possible holdem hands he could have preflop. Of all the hands that he could have, your bet causes him to fold the winner only when he holds one of the six combinations of KK. By representing the ace - you succeed in getting him to fold only when you have him beat - or he has KK (and the one other combination of QQ which ties). If he folds KK, then he folds JJ, TT, 99, 88 and 44 all of which you beat - so you gain nothing from betting in those cases. There are alot of hands he could hold - for instance, if he holds A8 or A4 (16 combinations each - and a possible since this would give him an open ended straight draw on the flop) he very likely calls when he pairs aces.
Ok, I'm done rambling - I think you have to re-raise on the flop to gain information.- let's find out now before the expensive streets. Since you did not play that way on the flop - I'm not sure what to do on the turn either - you simply don't have enough information on which to base a decision. The river however is a bet which will only be called when you are beat and folded when you already have the winner (with the exception of the 7 combinations of KK and QQ left) .
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Re: decision please...how did I play it?, Formless, 7. Sep 2003 09:21
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> Flop comes down 765, with two diamonds (my queens are black). BB checks, I
> bet, next guy raises. Other two players fold, I call the raise.

You have to go at least 4 bets on the flop with this hand. What hands do you think they called your UTG raise with preflop and how does this board help them? AA and KK are less likely to be out there since they just cold called you preflop.

> Turn comes another 7- now I'm a bit worried. I check, he bets, I call.

Even if your opponent got the last raise in on the flop, I would bet out the turn, a raise would put me in check-call mode as I would consider A7, a full house, or an overpair has me beat..

> River comes an Ace, no flush. I decide to bet into it representing the ace,

Very bad card for you. Check call the river here, no matter what. You got lucky with your bluff. A good opponent would not fold KK on the river very often when the pot is this big. You can argue that if you are going to check call you might as well bet out but I don't think that is a great strategy for a number of reasons.
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Re: decision please...how did I play it?, Roy Cooke, 8. Sep 2003 06:46
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Hi Eli

I don't like the bet on the end in spite of the fact that it gained you the pot......What hand that you cannot beat is he going to fold? I can only think of KK and I would not read him for that in this case!

Another question in the hand is what is he going to call you with that you can beat? I don't know the texture of the player in this hand.....But generally speaking I don't think many players would pay off there with 99.

Generally, when you bet.....You are looking for either:

1.) A worse hand to call.

2.) A better hand to fold.

In this case the scenarios for either were VERY limited on the river!

Life is Good :-)
Roy Cooke

on 6. Sep 2003 23:26 EC wrote:
> OK, here's a hand I won tonight, but I'd like to know if you think I played it
> right or just got lucky.
>
> Game was 6-12 HE at my B&M. Fairly typical 6-12 game. I'm UTG with QQ, I
> raise. Player to my left calls, button and BB call.
>
> Flop comes down 765, with two diamonds (my queens are black). BB checks, I
> bet, next guy raises. Other two players fold, I call the raise. I'm not
> worried about him having a straight, he wouldn't have kicked the other players
> out if he did. More likely that he had a 7 or an overpair that he was
> protecting. He was fairly new, so I really didn't know what kind of player he
> was, but he seemed rational.
>
> Turn comes another 7- now I'm a bit worried. I check, he bets, I call.
>
> River comes an Ace, no flush. I decide to bet into it representing the ace,
> since I did raise pre-flop from early position. Other player agonizes for a
> minute, then mucks KK face up. So my bluff worked and he laid down a hand that
> would beat me, but I would like some opinions if I played this right.
>
> The way I saw it on the river is that betting was likely the only way I could
> win the hand, unless he had something like JJ, TT, 99 etc. I didn't know if he
> was capable of folding trips, but I do know if he raised me on the river I would
> have folded (thinking he had something like A7). I didn't expect to see KK-
> after all he didn't reraise me pre-flop.
>
> I also figured that betting into him on the river after he raised me on the
> flop and I check-called the turn, should send red lights flashing all over the
> place.
>
> To make him feel better I told him afterward that I had him beat, which I guess
> is technically true since I beat him...
>
> Any comments on my play here?
>
> Eli
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Re: decision please...how did I play it?, EC, 8. Sep 2003 13:38
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Just a couple notes in follow-up on my hand here. Someone mentioned (don't remember who, and I don't want to go through the posts again) that I seemed lost on the flop, which was correct. With a 765 flop with 2 diamonds there were a tremendous amount of hands that I could have put someone on, mostly since I didn't really know this player well. He could have had 87, he could have had an overpair (which he did), he could have had a nut flush draw, a made straight, and given the way people play at Hollywood Park he could have called my raise and raised the flop with any of those. I reacted defensively by calling rather than taking the time to really think about it.

And another comment to one of the posters- I guarantee you that someone with 77 would have called my pre-flop raise, in fact at Hollywood Park I would often expect to get reraised by said idiot.

As for my very controversial bet on the river, it was all "feel" and no math, I reasoned (correctly or not) a few things:

- I had represented aces the whole way through, and when he raised the flop and I checked the turn he likely thought I put him on a straight, particularly since I didn't reraise him on the flop.

- the only way I could win this hand was to show agression and bet out. A bet clearly indicates at least one ace to him, but more likely that I can beat either trip sevens or a straight. I knew that no matter what happened on the river it would likely cost me one bet, and I felt it was better spent this way rather than check-calling.

And I was right, so there (just kidding!)

Thanks for all the comments. My lesson learned here is to stop and think when necessary, in which case I would have popped him back on the flop and kept control throughout the hand.


Eli

on 6. Sep 2003 23:26 EC wrote:
> OK, here's a hand I won tonight, but I'd like to know if you think I played it
> right or just got lucky.
>
> Game was 6-12 HE at my B&M. Fairly typical 6-12 game. I'm UTG with QQ, I
> raise. Player to my left calls, button and BB call.
>
> Flop comes down 765, with two diamonds (my queens are black). BB checks, I
> bet, next guy raises. Other two players fold, I call the raise. I'm not
> worried about him having a straight, he wouldn't have kicked the other players
> out if he did. More likely that he had a 7 or an overpair that he was
> protecting. He was fairly new, so I really didn't know what kind of player he
> was, but he seemed rational.
>
> Turn comes another 7- now I'm a bit worried. I check, he bets, I call.
>
> River comes an Ace, no flush. I decide to bet into it representing the ace,
> since I did raise pre-flop from early position. Other player agonizes for a
> minute, then mucks KK face up. So my bluff worked and he laid down a hand that
> would beat me, but I would like some opinions if I played this right.
>
> The way I saw it on the river is that betting was likely the only way I could
> win the hand, unless he had something like JJ, TT, 99 etc. I didn't know if he
> was capable of folding trips, but I do know if he raised me on the river I would
> have folded (thinking he had something like A7). I didn't expect to see KK-
> after all he didn't reraise me pre-flop.
>
> I also figured that betting into him on the river after he raised me on the
> flop and I check-called the turn, should send red lights flashing all over the
> place.
>
> To make him feel better I told him afterward that I had him beat, which I guess
> is technically true since I beat him...
>
> Any comments on my play here?
>
> Eli
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