|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 11/20/2008 8:04:29 AM PACIFIC |
 WOULD YOU AGREE?, socal_1111, 6. Sep 2003 23:11 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Being a great poker player consists of much more than just "knowing the numbers?" You definitely need to be discipline with your specific odds but FEEL is huge also... agree? How would you weigh the two (odds vs. feel)? One outweigh the other? Even? I used to play professional tennis on tour and now teach potential juniors who strive to do the same. A gigantic part of my specific theory of being a great player is being able to "FEEL" your game/opponent's game/situations, etc. You definitely need to be mechanically strong, but w/out feel, FORGET IT! I would rather teach someone with great feel and weaker mechanics than vice versa. It's my opinion those players will go much further.... As I relate that to poker, I see many similarities. Your thoughts??? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: WOULD YOU AGREE?, Angel, 6. Sep 2003 23:23 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I've seen it said before that math is about 10% of poker. I think that's about accurate actually, but what that number fails to convey is that it is an indispensible foundation. It is like the first floor of a 10 story building; unfortunately, I think many new students of the game decide they are going to get right to work on the other "more important" 90%. I would take the same position as you (with tennis) and be much more inclined to work with someone whom had shown a proper feel for the game - the mechanics can be worked out. That said, I would even be more inclined to work with someone who possessed a passion and drive - even if they failed to have an inborn mechanical or 'feel' aptitude. More important than mathematical ability or even instinct I would place (in no particular order) : Passion/Drive, Patience and Discipline. It is quite possible that no one had more natural instinct for the game than Stu Unger - which just goes to show that instinct isn't enough. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: WOULD YOU AGREE?, flintsword, 7. Sep 2003 00:03 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| If you separate "feel" from "the ability to read players" in poker, I think "feel" is the application of very specialized, "situation-specific knowledge" that looks like telepathy to amateurs but in reality is nothing but experience and knowledge for poker professionals. This phenomenon is common in chess, where strong masters get beaten by grandmasters just because they play on another level. I remember getting the upper hand against an Icelandic Grandmaster in the Canadian Open a few years back only to get totally outplayed after making a small mistake that was ruthlessly exploited. We are not talking losing a piece here, ... just a positional edge. I believe that poker professionals have more demanding parameters when they define a poker game, the same way a chessmaster has a more rigourous evaluation process to understand a chess position. There are more elements being considered by the better (winning) poker player than the beginner poker player in the same way that a chess master takes into consideration more elements in the chess position than the amateur chess player. Example: The AMATEUR CHESS PLAYER considers a few moves ahead, is careful not to give away pieces, is careful about the center, and develops his pieces. These are common beginner ideas for chessplayers. The CHESS MASTER considers the position as a whole, in terms of his general strategic and dynamic objectives as he develops his pieces. "Initiative" is very real and tangible to a chess master. Spacial advantages, positional advantages, and preparation of key breaks (specialized knowledge) depends on the position and the chess master knows these positions. Moves and exchanges of pieces are made while considering the future endgame. I think I have made my point for chess ... :) Now for poker. The BEGINNER POKER PLAYER plays Group One hands, knows a little about position, and raises when he/she believe they have the better hand. They bluff. They check raise, and they value bet. Here I am going to make a good guess for the poker pros ... POKER PROFESSIONALS have a more exacting criterion for position and their hands, they also (like the chess master) consider the poker game as a whole, composed of playing elements that have ranges of behavior, methods of betting, and limits of playing ability. The poker game is played with strategic objectives as well as tactical objectives. Odds are not limited to "pot odds", but rather "pot odds", "effective odds", and the odds of a play succeeding based on game theory being applied to each player. If player A will fold 1/4 of the time he is pressed with a bet greater than 4xBB, this knowledge is considered and used. The poker pro has a much more extensive tool kit beyond check raise, value bet, and the bluff. There is the semi bluff. The raise is no longer just "a raise", but rather a number of raises each with different objectives. Long thread, my apologies, but I think that the "feel" is nothing more and nothing less than real skills. It looks like voodoo when the poker pro wins over and over again, but there ARE reasons. In exactly the same way, the Chess Master looks impressive when he plays fifty players simultaneously. I can assure you, that for a master chess player, playing fifty people at the same time is child's play, but man, ... does it look impressive! We just have to appreciate these specialized skills, learn them, and then apply them correctly. Lots of work. Lots of fun. Subtle. Hope this post helps. I find the parallel with chess very helpful to appreciate these subtle poker playing skills. flintsword | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: WOULD YOU AGREE?, Roy Cooke, 8. Sep 2003 06:53 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I have seen many great players have little knowledge of the math....But great feel for the game......I think feel is WAY more important! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 6. Sep 2003 23:11 socal_1111 wrote: > Being a great poker player consists of much more than just "knowing the > numbers?" You definitely need to be discipline with your specific odds but FEEL > is huge also... agree? > > How would you weigh the two (odds vs. feel)? One outweigh the other? Even? > > I used to play professional tennis on tour and now teach potential juniors who > strive to do the same. A gigantic part of my specific theory of being a great > player is being able to "FEEL" your game/opponent's game/situations, etc. You > definitely need to be mechanically strong, but w/out feel, FORGET IT! I would > rather teach someone with great feel and weaker mechanics than vice versa. It's > my opinion those players will go much further.... > > As I relate that to poker, I see many similarities. Your thoughts??? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: WOULD YOU AGREE?, Phish, 8. Sep 2003 07:01 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I think in loose full games, the math is more important. And you don't have to have the precise probabilities memorized, just a general understanding of what hands to play, and when to continue with a draw, and when to bet/raise for value when all you have is a draw. (In Omaha hi/lo, it gets a little more complicated because it is often mathematically correct to lay down the current best hand on the flop.) But in short-handed games, especially at the higher levels, 'feel' becomes much more important. Now bluffing is essential. Knowing when your opponent is weak and can be moved off a hand is key. Likewise, knowing your king-high is good and calling is essential. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: WOULD YOU AGREE?, 4 POKER, 8. Sep 2003 09:05 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 8. Sep 2003 06:53 Roy Cooke wrote: > I have seen many great players have little knowledge of the math....But great feel > for the game......I think feel is WAY more important! > > Life is Good :-) > Roy Cooke > I agree with you Roy, 100%!! Almost every player I know who is successful in poker and have remained on top, are indeed the type of players who definitely play on "feel" and their own natural gut poker instinct....no questions about it either! Both are important, but feel is a MUST -but unfortunately it doesn't come in a book. 4P- > on 6. Sep 2003 23:11 socal_1111 wrote: > > Being a great poker player consists of much more than just "knowing the > > numbers?" You definitely need to be discipline with your specific odds but FEEL > > is huge also... agree? > > > > How would you weigh the two (odds vs. feel)? One outweigh the other? Even? > > > > I used to play professional tennis on tour and now teach potential juniors who > > strive to do the same. A gigantic part of my specific theory of being a great > > player is being able to "FEEL" your game/opponent's game/situations, etc. You > > definitely need to be mechanically strong, but w/out feel, FORGET IT! I would > > rather teach someone with great feel and weaker mechanics than vice versa. It's > > my opinion those players will go much further.... > > > > As I relate that to poker, I see many similarities. Your thoughts??? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|