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Server Time: 8/29/2008 9:46:22 PM PACIFIC |
 2 strategy questions, lunchmeat, 4. Sep 2003 16:07 | ||
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| Here are two atypical situations I wasn't sure how to handle. Comments on my play would be appreciated. Question 1) loose/passive online 3/6 game. UTG folds, I call with 77, mp1 calls, mp2 calls, CO calls, button calls, sb calls, bb checks. Flop: 8c 6d 4h. Checked to me, I bet, mp1 folds, mp2 raises, CO & blinds call. I call. Turn: (8c, 6d, 4h) As SB checks, BB bets, I fold. Anybody have thoughts on how I played this one? I'm not so sure myself. The pluses of betting the flop seem to be that I could easily have the best hand with 77, and with the gutshot I have at least 4 outs to improve. On the other hand I'm out of position and could wait to see if any passive players behind me bet, which would indicate top pair. On the turn I folded because I didn't want a raise behind me to destroy my gutshot odds. In retrospect I think this was a bad fold because the flop raiser probably just had a pair of eights. Did I make any mistakes on the flop and/or turn? Question 2) tight/weak online 3/6 game. Table full of rocks except for a good player 2 positions to my left and another good player to his left. I'm constantly getting good, but not great, hands in late position when it is folded to me. I figure hands like A9, QT, JTs are too good not to try a steal raise with. But the good players in the blinds are constantly playing back at me. I tried playing back at them on later streets, but wasn't successful. At what point can you start calling down to the end with an unimproved KJ, or just give up and fold when you get a hand like QT in the cutoff and it's folded to you? BTW, I read these players as good, not loose/aggressive. | ||
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| Re: 2 strategy questions, Mark, 4. Sep 2003 16:33 | ||
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| Hi my responses are after your questions > Here are two atypical situations I wasn't sure how to handle. Comments on my > play would be appreciated. > > Question 1) loose/passive online 3/6 game. UTG folds, I call with 77, mp1 > calls, mp2 calls, CO calls, button calls, sb calls, bb checks. > > Flop: 8c 6d 4h. > Checked to me, I bet, mp1 folds, mp2 raises, CO & blinds call. I call. I wouldn't have bet here. In a loose/passive game, a flop bet with 7 opponents will not will the pot. Any pair, draw and overcards will probably call, making a ton of cards that will beat you by the river. I would have check/folded, maybe check/called if everyone else stayed in. > > Turn: (8c, 6d, 4h) As > SB checks, BB bets, I fold. The pot is only laying you 9:1 on your gutshot draw. The implied odds may be as his as 12 or 13:1, but with a 2 flush now on the board and so many players in, i would still fold. > Anybody have thoughts on how I played this one? I'm not so sure myself. The > pluses of betting the flop seem to be that I could easily have the best hand > with 77, This may be true, but your flop bet will not win, and soo many cards will end up giving you a 2nd best hand by the river. and with the gutshot I have at least 4 outs to improve. You only have 3 clean outs to the gutshot because of the 2 flush. And if you ended up making trips, some one else may have a st8. On the other > hand I'm out of position and could wait to see if any passive players behind me > bet, which would indicate top pair. > > On the turn I folded because I didn't want a raise behind me to destroy my > gutshot odds. In retrospect I think this was a bad fold because the flop raiser > probably just had a pair of eights. Did I make any mistakes on the flop and/or > turn? > I would have probably got away from the hand on the flop. With soo many opponents, it is easy for one of them to have a better hand than you. And although the implied odds may show a small overlay, i don't think the overlay is big enough to play the hand because of all the the number of players and all the possible hands. > Question 2) tight/weak online 3/6 game. Table full of rocks except for a good > player 2 positions to my left and another good player to his left. > > I'm constantly getting good, but not great, hands in late position when it is > folded to me. I figure hands like A9, QT, JTs are too good not to try a steal > raise with. But the good players in the blinds are constantly playing back at > me. I tried playing back at them on later streets, but wasn't successful. If the players are good and constantly playing back at you, stop trying to steal. All of the literature about stealing assumes you have at least a chance to take the blinds. Against these guys you have not chance, so steal attempts are useless. Limp in and see what happens. > At what point can you start calling down to the end with an unimproved KJ, or > just give up and fold when you get a hand like QT in the cutoff and it's folded > to you? BTW, I read these players as good, not loose/aggressive. > Just limp with your hands against these guys and see what happens. You don't gain anything agaisnt these guys by raising pre-flop since they understand what you're doing and know how to take away your edge. Also, bets on later rounds will be taken more seriously if you don't bet pre-flop. If these guys are good and won't let you steal, why are you playing with them to your left? Move or get out and find another game. You could have completely eliminated this problem by moving. Mark | ||
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| Re: 2 strategy questions, EC, 4. Sep 2003 17:03 | ||
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| like the other poster said, keep in mind that with 77 and that board, you really don't have any clean outs. If you make a set, it's almost a guarantee that someone has a 5 (with that many players) and made a straight, and if they didn't everyone would assume you did if you bet your set aggressively. If you make your gutshot, it could make someone else a flush, you could split the pot, or lose to a better straight. All food for thought when calculating your odds. Getting out of there on the flop would likely have been the best move. Eli on 4. Sep 2003 16:07 lunchmeat wrote: > Here are two atypical situations I wasn't sure how to handle. Comments on my > play would be appreciated. > > Question 1) loose/passive online 3/6 game. UTG folds, I call with 77, mp1 > calls, mp2 calls, CO calls, button calls, sb calls, bb checks. > > Flop: 8c 6d 4h. > Checked to me, I bet, mp1 folds, mp2 raises, CO & blinds call. I call. > > Turn: (8c, 6d, 4h) As > SB checks, BB bets, I fold. > > Anybody have thoughts on how I played this one? I'm not so sure myself. The > pluses of betting the flop seem to be that I could easily have the best hand > with 77, and with the gutshot I have at least 4 outs to improve. On the other > hand I'm out of position and could wait to see if any passive players behind me > bet, which would indicate top pair. > > On the turn I folded because I didn't want a raise behind me to destroy my > gutshot odds. In retrospect I think this was a bad fold because the flop raiser > probably just had a pair of eights. Did I make any mistakes on the flop and/or > turn? > > Question 2) tight/weak online 3/6 game. Table full of rocks except for a good > player 2 positions to my left and another good player to his left. > > I'm constantly getting good, but not great, hands in late position when it is > folded to me. I figure hands like A9, QT, JTs are too good not to try a steal > raise with. But the good players in the blinds are constantly playing back at > me. I tried playing back at them on later streets, but wasn't successful. > > At what point can you start calling down to the end with an unimproved KJ, or > just give up and fold when you get a hand like QT in the cutoff and it's folded > to you? BTW, I read these players as good, not loose/aggressive. > > | ||
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| Re: 2 strategy questions, Piers Majestyk, 4. Sep 2003 17:46 | ||
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| I would have checked the flop and called as the pot would be laying at least 11 or 12 to one which are plenty to go for the gutter and perhaps even your 2 sevens would be good. When the Big Blind leads out on the turn I would have folded. Another thing to take into consideration is folding this hand up front unless every pot is getting 5 or more way action which I know is not uncommon at some of those tables. In regard to your second question I have really curtailed stealing attempts on line from late position. One reason is that I play 3 or 4 tables at a time and I see so many hands that I only play the really good ones. Hands like Q10, A9 in the cutoff look like 72 to me. Against those good opponents that play back at you limit your late position raises against them until you have the goods. I can guarantee you no matter how good they are if you are any where near a solid player they shouldn't be able to outplay you out of position if you limit your confrontations with them to times when you have good not average cards. Good luck. | ||
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| Re: 2 strategy questions, shorn, 5. Sep 2003 04:49 | ||
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| Lunch- My answers are beneath each scenario. Steve on 4. Sep 2003 16:07 lunchmeat wrote: > Here are two atypical situations I wasn't sure how to handle. Comments on my > play would be appreciated. > > Question 1) loose/passive online 3/6 game. UTG folds, I call with 77, mp1 > calls, mp2 calls, CO calls, button calls, sb calls, bb checks. > > Flop: 8c 6d 4h. > Checked to me, I bet, mp1 folds, mp2 raises, CO & blinds call. I call. I would have checked the flop here. You have 6 opponents and you don't have position. All you really have is a gutshot and unless you are sure that you can get 4 callers (and no raise), betting with 77 is not good value. As it turns out, if you had checked, the playere who raised would likely have bet out and gotten enough callers so that you could have continued to the turn for 1 bet instead of two getting proper odds. Now, I would have called the raise too but been very wary of 3 cold callers to a raise. > Turn: (8c, 6d, 4h) As > SB checks, BB bets, I fold. When the Ace falls, I think you have to fold because you still only have 4 outs and your current odds to hit are only 9-1. Add to this that the player behind you could raise, and your odds aren't even that good. > Anybody have thoughts on how I played this one? I'm not so sure myself. The > pluses of betting the flop seem to be that I could easily have the best hand > with 77, and with the gutshot I have at least 4 outs to improve. On the other > hand I'm out of position and could wait to see if any passive players behind me > bet, which would indicate top pair. > > On the turn I folded because I didn't want a raise behind me to destroy my > gutshot odds. In retrospect I think this was a bad fold because the flop raiser > probably just had a pair of eights. Did I make any mistakes on the flop and/or > turn? > > Question 2) tight/weak online 3/6 game. Table full of rocks except for a good > player 2 positions to my left and another good player to his left. > > I'm constantly getting good, but not great, hands in late position when it is > folded to me. I figure hands like A9, QT, JTs are too good not to try a steal > raise with. But the good players in the blinds are constantly playing back at > me. I tried playing back at them on later streets, but wasn't successful. > > At what point can you start calling down to the end with an unimproved KJ, or > just give up and fold when you get a hand like QT in the cutoff and it's folded > to you? BTW, I read these players as good, not loose/aggressive. IMO, QT is not really that good a steal hand against solid players in the blind. A9 and JTs are slightly better, but if you are being constantly called down, I think you need to shift gears and fold some of these hands, especially if you are being outplayed on later streets (which it appears that you are in this case). As for when you start calling down the blinds with nothing, you might try it once, but long run if you are trying to steal, are caught and miss, you should generally give it up. I usually will bet the flop if it doesn't look too coordinated and then if called, shut it down hoping to improve by the river. | ||
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| Re: 2 strategy questions, Roy Cooke, 5. Sep 2003 06:51 | ||
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| Hi My answers are underneath the questions Roy Cooke on 4. Sep 2003 16:07 lunchmeat wrote: > Here are two atypical situations I wasn't sure how to handle. Comments on my > play would be appreciated. > > Question 1) loose/passive online 3/6 game. UTG folds, I call with 77, mp1 > calls, mp2 calls, CO calls, button calls, sb calls, bb checks. > > Flop: 8c 6d 4h. > Checked to me, I bet, mp1 folds, mp2 raises, CO & blinds call. I call. > > Turn: (8c, 6d, 4h) As > SB checks, BB bets, I fold. > > Anybody have thoughts on how I played this one? I'm not so sure myself. The > pluses of betting the flop seem to be that I could easily have the best hand > with 77, and with the gutshot I have at least 4 outs to improve. On the other > hand I'm out of position and could wait to see if any passive players behind me > bet, which would indicate top pair. > > On the turn I folded because I didn't want a raise behind me to destroy my > gutshot odds. In retrospect I think this was a bad fold because the flop raiser > probably just had a pair of eights. Did I make any mistakes on the flop and/or > turn? Roy Says: The call is close.....But I think you made the correct play in folding......You are getting 8 1/2-1 current and can expect further action if you make your hand...A seven MAY be good and there is a small chance that your hand is good. That said, the factors that weaken your a hand are: The five may just make for a split and the pot may get raised behind you. > > Question 2) tight/weak online 3/6 game. Table full of rocks except for a good > player 2 positions to my left and another good player to his left. > > I'm constantly getting good, but not great, hands in late position when it is > folded to me. I figure hands like A9, QT, JTs are too good not to try a steal > raise with. But the good players in the blinds are constantly playing back at > me. I tried playing back at them on later streets, but wasn't successful. > > At what point can you start calling down to the end with an unimproved KJ, or > just give up and fold when you get a hand like QT in the cutoff and it's folded > to you? BTW, I read these players as good, not loose/aggressive. Roy Says: Sounds like you are getting outplayed.....When you are entering the pot against good players you need to tighten up....The fact that they are going to outplay you in spots reduces the value of plays greatly. I don't think you should give up on all your hands...But you do not want to put yourself out on a limb. Also, if good players are outplaying you consistently, watch yourself for playing too predictable or giving off tells! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke > > | ||
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