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Server Time: 8/28/2008 8:31:35 PM PACIFIC |
 An easy way to think about starting hands, noiseboy, 4. Sep 2003 11:01 | ||
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| I was sort've going over this idea of how to think about starting hands without using any charts or rigid rules by asking yourself certain questions when you are in certain situations. An example would be if someone from early position raised and it's folded to you in late position, the relevant question is: is my hand better than the hands that this particular opponent would raise with? Or lets say it's folded to you on the button where you basically only consider two things: How well does this hand play heads-up? and How liberally do these players defend their blinds? Or perhaps you have an early position raiser and several cold callers who are fairly loose players and you are in late position with some type of drawing hand where the relevant question becomes: Do I have implied odds to play this hand for a raise? Basically my idea is that by asking themselves the most pertinent question about whether to play a hand, that players could make better informed decisions about playing a hand than "Oh Abdul, Jones, Sklansky or Kreiger say it's playable from this position." This would get beginning players thinking about why they are playing the hand in the first place and how to play it after the flop, and would take out a lot of memorization from the process. I want to experiment with different teaching methods that might work for players who don't respond well to the traditional hand chart approach, and I realized that I made a big leap in ability when I stopped thinking in terms of rigid hand values and more in the fluid direction of why I'm playing this hand in this specific situation and table condition. Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: An easy way to think about starting hands, Easy E, 4. Sep 2003 11:25 | ||
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| not bad at all, but one flaw is that you can't use it on an initial sit-down, when you don't know the table. I think starting hand group knowledge, by position, is similar in concept (though nowhere nearly as precise) as BJ play strategy, in that a "best play proven by computer/calculation" can be generally given for hands, IGNORING OTHER FACTORS. Thus, it is a fundamental base of knowledge that you need. You then have to be able to ignore it in favor of more relevant information, such as table image, opponent tendencies, etc (which is what you are talking about in your post). comments? | ||
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| Re: An easy way to think about starting hands, Angel, 4. Sep 2003 11:37 | ||
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| Quote from Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players by Sklansky and Malmuth pg 17: "However, we want to state that by the time you reach expert status you shouldn't be thinking in terms of hand groups. At this point in your playing career your starting hand decisions should be based on the intrinsic value of each hand in each particular situation. But if you are just getting started playing, we know of no better approach." Starting hand selection is the foundation of solid winning holdem play . Whether it's Sklansky's/Malmuths hand groupings, Krieger's charts or any other proven winning system you choose, I would suggest learning it and not trying to take shortcuts. Once the foundations is set - then the journeyman holdem player will be more able to see the opportunities that lie within the exceptions. | ||
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| Re: An easy way to think about starting hands, noiseboy, 4. Sep 2003 13:48 | ||
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| Well for some types of learners, me for instance, I think that rigid hand charts often hurt more than they help. Personally, I've never been able to remember ANY chart of hands, regardless of who designed it. For a while when I played online I had one of those charts taped to my monitor, but I still found myself varying from it when I thought I knew better. The method I'm thinking about would still have the hands grouped into categories, but based on the hand type and not something that is as variable as "hand value", this avoids the apples and oranges comparisons of small pairs to suited overcards, etc... and would also avoid some of the problems of how hands do not change equally in value when table conditions change. Anyway, I'm thinking I might turn what worked for me into an alternative system of gaining virtually the same knowledge that Sklansky is talking about when you "move beyond" the charts, but learning it directly rather than starting with the groups. It's not so much a short cut, but rather learning the expert knowledge in an easily remembered format without the previous tool of the charts. I don't know how it will work out, but I have a couple of friends who are willing to be guineau pigs, so we will see. Hopefully they won't lose all their money listening to me. ;) | ||
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| Re: An easy way to think about starting hands, Bart Mann, 4. Sep 2003 14:33 | ||
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| One thing I've noticed in this Forum--and I've only been here a few days--is that no matter what kind of idea you post, there are 10 people who agree and 10 who can make a very good argument to the contrary. My take is that once you get past the hand charts and obvious plays, poker is so situational and environmental (table makeup, table image, stack size, gear shifting, card rushes etc.) that making up any set of "advanced guidelines" is nearly impossible--because there are always a handful of situations in which the play in question does not have the highest Expected Value. Not to discourage you from what you're attempting to do, but I think you might drive yourself mad doing it. Either way, I wish you luck! | ||
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| Re: An easy way to think about starting hands, mkpoker, 4. Sep 2003 15:47 | ||
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| on 4. Sep 2003 11:37 Angel wrote: > Quote from Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players by Sklansky and Malmuth pg 17: > > "However, we want to state that by the time you reach expert status you shouldn't be > thinking in terms of hand groups. At this point in your playing career your starting > hand decisions should be based on the intrinsic value of each hand in each particular > situation. But if you are just getting started playing, we know of no better > approach." > True enough, but it's easier to THINK you've reached "expert status" than to actually have done it. I | ||
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| Re: An easy way to think about starting hands, Leroy, 4. Sep 2003 14:40 | ||
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| As a beginning poker player myself the multitude of tables in different articles don't look useful or something you would want to put your teeth in. But truth is they are important. And they are rigid, of course they are. But the information will help you in the long haul. I struggle at the moment with hands like AQo/s AJo/s in the different positions, in a NLHE game. And the tables help me in making my decision by providing some hard guidelines, in addition to the information I get by trying to determine whether I have the best hand or not. I found that the tables work best by deciphering them piece by piece as you need them to enhance your knowledge, as opposed to just learning them by heart. They'll make sense once you're ready to understand them. But this is all just my experience, not trying to lay down the law on anyone | ||
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| Re: An easy way to think about starting hands, URF, 5. Sep 2003 02:18 | ||
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| Hi noiseboy. I have had my own thoughts on a replacement for "hand groups" and tables; please see my post above called "A Starting Hand Points-Count System for Hold 'Em" and tell me what you think. -URF | ||
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