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Server Time: 10/15/2008 9:25:04 PM PACIFIC |
 NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, jdavidk, 4. Sep 2003 07:42 | ||
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| I was given some advice by someone over at Poker School Online by a player that seemed pretty knowledgeable. He told me that when playing a tourney he will "never limp in" he said that he always bets (usually double the blind) if he is going to play a hand. He also told me that he bets double the blind NO MATTER what the hand is he is going to play so that it keeps people guessing what his hand is. He opens the same for 99 as he does KK. Does this make sense in a tourney?? (of course it seems to change when you get to the higher blinds) I would like to hear others thoughts on this strategy. I I also have a question about that style once you get to the finals table. I was in a finals table last night in Bugsys ($15+1 buy in pay out to 5 places, I finished SIXTH ) and everyone seemed to be going all in all the time or betting huge on the button and EVERONE was folding all the time. I was getting real nervous not knowing what to do.... Rambling over with.... Dave | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, Brett LeMarinel, 4. Sep 2003 08:39 | ||
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| I tend to agree with the "raise if you are going to be in a hand" tournament strategy, especially when playing from an early or middle position. By raising you will force out some players who may be willing to call with weak suited connectors in middle or late position and may outdraw you in the end. Also, by narrowing the field you have a better chance of putting the people on a hand at the flop. It will make it more difficult for them to put you on a hand if you raise any time you are in a hand. For ex. say you raise MP with 99 to double the BB, button and BB call with everyone else folding. Since you raised, is unlikely ( in tournament) a person holding an over pair to your 9s would just call. Flop is A85. BB checks on you, a bet here may win you the hand, and will definately let you know where you stand. If the button doesn't have an A is likely he will put you on AK or AQ and may fold right there. Same for the BB. And if you bet and are raised, is easy to release your 99 or take a card, depending on the size of your raise. Basically, the preflop raise regardless of your cards, gives you more opportunities to win the pot, as well as narrows the field making it easier to put your opponnents on a hand. The advantages to raising preflop in tournament play far outweigh the one bet you save by just calling in the long run. BSL | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, noiseboy, 4. Sep 2003 09:08 | ||
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| Early in a tournament, when there are still multi-way pots, it's okay to limp with some drawing-type hands. However, once the blinds get pretty high and people start tightening up, you almost always want to open with a raise because of the chance you will win the blinds and antes without a fight. Also, because people start getting really aggressive later in the tourney, when you limp it will likely get raised which puts you in a quandary. There are times to limp, but I lean towards raise/fold more and more as the tournament gets to the later stages. | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, mkpoker, 4. Sep 2003 10:27 | ||
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| I think that's awful advice. What if you're dealt 78s on the button with 4 limpers to you? You don't want to raise...You want to see the flop cheap. Then, if you hit the flop, your implied odds soar. If the flop is AQ9 rainbow, you can get out with no damage. However, hands like this are exactly the reason you want to raise from EP or MP...to prevent someone with 78s from seeing the flop cheap! If you've got a good hand that doesn't play well multi-way (like high cards), you want to raise to narrow the field. | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, KJMOSU, 4. Sep 2003 11:53 | ||
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| i disagree. i think the small pots you'll take after the flop far out-weigh the damage of one raise. if four people limped in and the flop comes AQ8, odds are that didn't fit their hands as well as it fit what you've already represented(AA, AK, KK, or AQ). take a shot after the flop and that's a decent pot right there(w/ 78). if they limped before the flop, and you make a strong bet, it's a call they can't make | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, shorn, 4. Sep 2003 13:00 | ||
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| True, but if you raise 4 limpers only a small amount, an astute limper may come over the top to try and take the pot pre-flop and then what are you going to do? You have committed a lot of chips to the pot with 87 and you won't get to see any cards. I think limping in LP with these types of hands is fine EARLY in the tournament. Later on, depending on my stack size, I generally fold them and wait for a better spot. | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, KJMOSU, 4. Sep 2003 13:40 | ||
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| all true. but.......when some one re-raises, i would just get out(it's an easy decision w/ 87). at that point i've only lost 2 or 3 times the blind. if i had a real hand, i could always come right back over them and always be on offense(it won't always be 87). i love the deception that strategy gives me. someone else brought this up so i should mention, it's not exactly what i do. | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, mkpoker, 4. Sep 2003 15:22 | ||
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| on 4. Sep 2003 11:53 KJMOSU wrote: > i disagree. i think the small pots you'll take after the flop far out-weigh the damage of > one raise. if four people limped in and the flop comes AQ8, odds are that didn't fit their > hands as well as it fit what you've already represented(AA, AK, KK, or AQ). take a shot > after the flop and that's a decent pot right there(w/ 78). if they limped before the flop, > and you make a strong bet, it's a call they can't make I respect your opinion, and make no claims to be a great (or even good) NL Tourney player, but I totally disagree with this approach. If you make a small raise in LP with 4 limpers already in, they'll likely call it to see a flop. (Or even worse, they'll reraise and drive you out altogether). And with multiple callers, it's a sure bet that at least one player holds Ax and it's also a good possibility that someone else holds a middle pair. With four limpers in, a flop like AQ8 must fit someone's hand at least pretty well, if not very well. It's a virtual certainty that someone has made a pair of aces, Aces-up is a possibility, and you've got to worry about trip 8s, too. I wouldn't try a pure bluff against multiple opponents with a board like that. IMHO, your chances of success are too slim... | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, KJMOSU, 4. Sep 2003 16:56 | ||
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| i thought he was talking about no-limit.......and, that is only one of many flops that could come up. i understand that it doesn't fit your hand, but it does fit what you've represented. i don't see getting re-raised as a tragedy. you have 78 and a re-raise tells you a lot about your opponent's hand. if i get re-raised i'm gone and i don't even have to think about it. what if you had raised the same amount w/ aces(which his system suggests you do but i don't agree w/). you'd like to get re-raised there and your opponent can't tell the difference between your aces or your 78(which makes him think next time he wants to re-raise you). it's definitely interesting if nothing else | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, Brett LeMarinel, 4. Sep 2003 14:18 | ||
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| I think its interesting you said awful advice then basically gave the same reasoning and advice I used. | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, KJMOSU, 4. Sep 2003 14:51 | ||
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| if you're talking to me.......i like the strategy. i like anything that puts me on offense more of the time. i agree w/ you | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, mkpoker, 4. Sep 2003 15:08 | ||
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| on 4. Sep 2003 14:18 Brett LeMarinel wrote: > I think its interesting you said awful advice then basically gave the same reasoning and > advice I used. The "awful advice" IMHO, is what JDave got from Poker School. You and I seem to think pretty-much alike on this point! | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, noiseboy, 5. Sep 2003 08:30 | ||
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| I'm totally with you on the 78s, you certainly wouldn't want to raise with that with all those limpers. However, my experience is that the situation you described almost NEVER would happen later in the tournament where almost every pot is raised. The situation described is likely to happen early in a tournament. I think the person who was giving the raise/fold advice is probably aware that not much limping goes on later in the tourney. But then again, that should definitely be a qualification of such advice, that on the rare occasion where limping situations occur late in the tourney, then by all means limp. | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, Formless, 4. Sep 2003 13:36 | ||
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| There are some people who say it is almost always wrong to open for a 2XBB raise. But for this player it may fit into his style on later streets. Also, early in a tournament when limits are tiny compared to stacks if I have a good but limpy hand I'll bring it in for 2XBB too in certain situations. The general argument against betting 2XBB is that you are giving the big blind every reason to call, considering the huge implied odds of flopping a monster and busting you. Limping encourages others to limp. So often I see this: you limp, 3 others limp and the BB moves all in to take the limp money. This is why I love limping with pocket aces though. Bringing it in for 2XBB gives you more bang for the buck I think in certain situations. You will still get your limpers but not as many and you don't really want to play too many family pots in tournaments. Your raise may buy the button and get it checked to you on the flop, all for an extra small bet. | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, Mark, 4. Sep 2003 16:48 | ||
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| David This is terrible advice. While the stradegy does have some merrit, there are too many situations you can get into where this advice is bad. First, always raising the same amount is very bad. Ideally, you want to bet more with your good hands, and less with lesser hands. But sometimes you also want to eliminate players from you hand or build volume pots. Never varying your raise will eliminate at least one of these possibilities. Second, always raising is also a bad idea. Sometimes calling to build volume pots is better and sometimes your hand doesn't warrant a raise. Small connectors and Ax suited usually want volume pots, with lots of oppenents. Always raising with these hands is wrong for many reasons. The player who gave you this advice has a one dimensional approach to poker and has alot of learning to do. He has the aggressive part down, but is not selective. His over-aggression probably makes up for alot of the problems he encounters by not being selective. And although he may be a winning player, he is not maximizing his profits. No where in any pro's literature or advice do they ever use the words "always" or "never" because every situation is different and must be evaluated on its own. To "always" raise regardless of the situation is just flat wrong. Mark | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, noiseboy, 5. Sep 2003 17:01 | ||
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| You wrote: "First, always raising the same amount is very bad. Ideally, you want to bet more with your good hands, and less with lesser hands" The problem with this, is that other players pick up on this and always know where you are in a hand. Then they fold without the nuts when you bet big, and they come over the top of your small bets and make you lay down marginal holdings that you could've won with by betting. The problem with varying you bets like this is it gives away too much information. Anyway, late in a tourney, if you don't raise it, someone else will 90% of the time, then where are you? | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourneys - Never Limp In?? What about Final Table?, chasepoker, 4. Sep 2003 17:24 | ||
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| I think the advice he was giving you was that he never limps in a pot if he is the first player in to it ( which is pretty sound tournament advice ) and that when he does enter the pot he makes the same raise whether he has 99 / KK / 72o whatever and this again is ( to some extent good advice if you have not much NL tournament experience IMO ) The situation that this post then goes on to describe where you have 4 limpers and you then raise is i believe completely different. When you get 4 limpers like this you can indeed raise ( a bet at least, if not more the size of the pot ) to try and take it down there as everyone limping implies weakness, but the situation needs to be right, I would say that you need to consider the following when making a move like this - likelihood of someone calling: based on1) whether they have the potential to slowplay big hands before you, the position they entered the pot ( more likely to get a big hand limp early in my experience)2) the range of cards they might call / reraise you with some people will do it with JJ some with AK other only with AA ,the more hands they would do it with the less likely you are to make this play 3) their chip size in relation to you and the table the further away from the average they are ( above and below ) the more likely they are to call 4) their chip size in relation to the pot that has been built ( again the closer they are to it the more likely they are to call. 5) the stage of the tournament are they waiting for the bubble , do they " mind " taking a risk here ? This list is just an example and not complete there are many many other factors that you must take into account. I would say dont do this move too often but it is a great weapon in your NL arsenal. As for reraising small with so many limpers i would say that you would never ever do that in a tournament with any hand at any stage ever. I would also say that you will not get too many situations in NL tournaments after the opening quarter where you will get that many limpers in a pot it is a situation that will occur maybe once every 30-40 hands if not less. The blinds are just to worth stealing ! Sorry for the ramble my English skills are really lacking this week CP on 4. Sep 2003 07:42 jdavidk wrote: > I was given some advice by someone over at Poker School Online by a player that > seemed pretty knowledgeable. He told me that when playing a tourney he will > "never limp in" he said that he always bets (usually double the blind) if he is > going to play a hand. He also told me that he bets double the blind NO MATTER > what the hand is he is going to play so that it keeps people guessing what his > hand is. He opens the same for 99 as he does KK. Does this make sense in a > tourney?? (of course it seems to change when you get to the higher blinds) | ||
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