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Server Time: 12/1/2008 6:00:23 PM PACIFIC |
 Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, Bart Mann, 3. Sep 2003 12:06 | ||
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| I'm looking for some opinions. My contention is that more often than not, raising pre-flop with suited AK, unsuited AK, AA or KK in a low-limit game (up to $2/$4) is not a profit maximizing play over the long term. Here's my reasoning: 1) A $2 raise, in any position, is not intimidating enough to get most low-limit players to muck their hands, no matter what they're holding. Most low-limit players will gladly pay the money, take a chance at the flop hitting them, and ultimately win a big, raised pot. In my experience, I would estimate that a pre-flop raise will scare away about 1 out of every 6 players. The remaining 5 will call the raise--assuming, of course, that they were going to play their hands before the raise was made. 2) Given #1 above, 84% of the players that were planning on playing the hand after they saw their first two cards will still play the hand, even with a raised pot. In other words, the $2 pre-flop raise has resulted in only a fraction less players--leaving that many more hanging around to run down your Aces, Kings or Big Slick with a straight, flush, full house or even a small pair. 3) Given #2 above, it would seem--at least in low-limit--like the better strategy would be to slow play the monster hand, and represent a marginal hand like everyone else. Then if the flop catches you big, you make your move--and hope that one or more of the astute players at the table thinks you're trying to steal the pot and plays back at you. I guess my thought is that a pre-flop raise in a low-limit game does little to improve your position; and having a monster hand "in hiding" is more valuable in a low-limit game over the long term. Thoughts, anyone? | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, noiseboy, 3. Sep 2003 12:18 | ||
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| I would agree with you except for one factor. In loose low limit games, there is a ton of the "check to the raiser" thing going on. I always raise with AK in LP in these games because I find it often buys me another chance to make my hand. Also, I'm building a huge pot for myself. Also, one of the main leaks of the loose players is playing any-A hands. With AK you have all of these players dominated and want them to pay to try and flop two pair. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, Bart Mann, 3. Sep 2003 14:49 | ||
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| I like the way you think--this is good stuff. Two very good points. In the "check to the raiser" situation post-flop when I'm holding AA, AK or KK, I always feel the need to bet it again even if the flop doesn't hit me, just to take everyone else's temperature. Damn that Doyle Bronson and his agressive advice. But checking around for a free card once in awhile probably won't kill me. I'll give it a try and let you know what I come up with. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, noiseboy, 3. Sep 2003 15:35 | ||
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| If you have a big pair you have to bet if it's checked to you on the flop, unless the flop is really scary (three str8-flush cards for instance). Don't let them into the deck for free when chances are you have the best hand. In loose games you'll get called by people who flopped lower pairs than your overpair and various draws that you don't want to give a free draw to beat you. However, hands like AK, AQ, AJs etc...in multiway pots, you likely don't have the best hand if all you flopped is overcards. If you raised preflop, people might all check to you and then you might want to take the freebie since this time it is you that is trying to make a hand for free. Hope this clarifies what I was talking about. Good Luck! | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, stdioh, 3. Sep 2003 12:21 | ||
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| I'm not even going to read your whole post. If you don't raise your monster hands preflop in any limit you're drilling a giant hole in your wallet. Even if you get tonnes of idiots calling and schooling on you with your AA, it doesn't matter ... they are *that* good. If you think that the fishiness in your limit is so extreme as to be difficult to play in, there is nothing to stop you from moving up in limits until things are just right. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, Bart Mann, 3. Sep 2003 14:45 | ||
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| I wasn't making a statement--I was looking for some positive debate on the issue of pre-flop raising in low-limit Holdem. I put a lot of thought and time into my post--and others did the same in their replies. Every once in awhile, it's fun to debate whether or not the earth is round. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, Brian462, 3. Sep 2003 14:47 | ||
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| The earth is round? | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, Bart Mann, 3. Sep 2003 14:50 | ||
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| It's debatable. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, stdioh, 3. Sep 2003 14:58 | ||
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| Fair enough. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, noiseboy, 3. Sep 2003 15:45 | ||
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| Hi stdioh, There are certain authorities who say that raising should be kept to a minimum in the no'foldem games. Mike Caro, for instance, says it might be alright to just call with AA's from a back position if there are a bunch of callers because by raising you will increase the odds on the flop that people are getting on all sorts of wacky draws to draw you out. Personally, I like to raise because I WANT them all to stay in, schooling or no, so my philosophy is along the lines of yours. However, even though this might be more +EV, it probably increases variance as well, because even though AA makes the most money with the most callers to the river, those AA's take some wicked beats when you have five hands at showdown, even when they improve. Personally, I think a player who has a lot of experience in loose games will know when to lay down their big pair if there are eight people in there capping every round. To summarize, I'm with you, but I think there are arguments for the other side. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, Schuster, 3. Sep 2003 12:28 | ||
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| Your big hands will hold up more than often enough to make it worth the raise. If AA wins 30% of the time against 9 other random hands, wouldn't you want all of those 9 other random hands putting in an extra bet? My countercontention would be that a lot of low limit players lose a lot more than they should when their big pairs get beaten. I've seen players take KK to the river with an ace on the flop and heavy action. Raising before the flop is correct, sticking around just in case your hand is good is not. Get your money in when you have the best hand, fold when you do not. It sounds so easy, but so many people ignore it. Lee | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, Bart Mann, 3. Sep 2003 14:35 | ||
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| You and a few others make a good point--don't be afraid to raise it up as long as you're disciplined enough to let the hand go when the time is right. That's a good point that I never thought of. Thanks for the valuable feedback without the social commentary. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, URF, 3. Sep 2003 13:44 | ||
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| You don't want to limit the field with AA or KK - you want as many opponents as possible. You should be very glad that they don't fold to your raises. But if it is aggressive as well as loose and you are in early position, just call and then re-raise. Not unlikely you'll get it capped with 5-6 opponents. Hooray! Just remember this: AA and KK aren't "monsters". Not in the sense that I use the word. They are the absolutely best holecards there are, but against very loose opponents, expect to lose with them most of the time. One pair is never a monster hand. Not even a set is a safe hand. You've got to be prepared to fold or fall back on checking and calling. At least that is what I do, not being an expert or anything. QQ on the other hand, I often just call preflop against many loose opponents. But I know many disagree with this, and they might be right, but it seems to work best for me that way. It feels like I am putting myself in tough spots too often if I raise with QQ, tough spots that I am not good enough to handle correctly yet. So I play preflop according to my postflop ability. I know I'll win against these kinds of opponents that way. AK(s) you can raise preflop if you know you don't get attached to it if you do, and can fold it if you miss. I always raise in late position, but not that often in early position. This might be a mistake, but it feels like it makes it easier for me to play postflop this way. And you've got to play preflop according to your ability to play postflop. Preflop is only a prelude. And also, if you do scare someone with Ax or Kx out of the pot with an early rase with AK, that's bad, I believe. -URF | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, Bart Mann, 3. Sep 2003 14:35 | ||
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| You and a few others make a good point--don't be afraid to raise it up as long as you're disciplined enough to let the hand go when the time is right. That's a good point that I never thought of. Thanks for the valuable feedback without the social commentary. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, stdioh, 3. Sep 2003 15:01 | ||
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| You do want to limit the field with AA. Of course you do. The optimal number of opponents to face when you hold AA is 3. When you get more than that, you win bigger pots, but less frequently. AA is a hand that you can only really pump if you can reasonably believe that you have the best hand. When you hold AA and there are 8 players in, any pair on board, straight, or flush, and you're nailed ... and the players will give eachother odds to play these things. Basically, they take up enough outs collectively that you are the one drawing to a small number of clean cards ... and you don't know which ones they are. Thus you want to face a small number of people who will jam in bets like monkeys on ritalin when they hit top pair top kicker. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, noiseboy, 3. Sep 2003 16:09 | ||
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| Computer sims have been done that show AA's making the most money with ten opponents all the way to the river. Basically, the pots you win will always be big enough to make up for the reduced win percentage. The problem is that you'll lose a large percentage of the pots with a lot of players, so in a tournament or a limited bankroll situation, for instance, you certainly don't mind losing a few people from a practical standpoint. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, DJpoker, 3. Sep 2003 22:11 | ||
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| A debate to be sure, but I have to agree with Stdioh. I will always raise AA, KK and usually AK (depending on position). You are literally pissing money away if you do not value raise AA and KK. Yes I have my fair share of nuts cracked, but if you don't want to get your money in the pot during this time, then maybe poker is not for you. I think if you are playing .01-.02 you should raise with the monsters of the midway (hey football does start tomorrow). Anyway, I am very happy to look at the flop with my J-10 in LP because you didn't raise and make me two or three bet pre-flop. If you have AA or KK in EP, please do yourself a favor and raise. Last time I checked, you want fewer opponents with pocket pairs and more opponents with drawing hands, but who knows? Good luck out there and make people pay you for your pocket rockets. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop Raising: Pointless in Low Limit?, frank snyder, 3. Sep 2003 18:03 | ||
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| I have had that conclusion myself, but learned better over time. I think it depends on the table, a table with a lot of tight old men and women, yes it will weed them out, especially if you play it agressive after flop, regardless of what you are holding. A table full of young men, who think of poker the same gamble as any other game in the house ( looking for lucky board ), no, the raise will be meaningless, and if you dont catch a piece of it you just wasted a bet. But on the flipside, there is something to be said for odds, if you come in with a monster starter, then you probably have good odds, again...with me it all depends on my customers. Good luck. | ||
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