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 Omaha H/L tourny Questions, pt_Gatsby, 3. Sep 2003 10:59 | ||
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| I have been playing a lot of Omaha HL lately, and have started to move up to some larger games and tournaments. I find that my comparable skill level is decent, though I also note that the good omaha players are way beyond me - and I really note this in the tournaments. So, on the quest to ever understand the game, I had a few questions. 1) When you start with good hands, even premium hands - is it wise to raise up pre-flop if you know it will drive people out? My logic was that it inherently was unwise to raise with premium low hands. The reasons are - anyone with a comparable hand will stay in, therefore reducing the value of competing with the remaining players. - the different in hand rankings becomes very evident (A234 would have to pretty much have not hit low at all not to get it). They are very very unlikely to outdraw you, except possibly high. It can, however, be wise to raise pre-flop with solid high hands because here you are in competition and you have the ability to scoop the pot if low doesn't hit. Therefore you want the lows to stay in, including the nut lows, because you aren't in competition with them. If your hand does get made, even marginally, the other lows probably did not and you will scoop a great pot. The problem lies with flushes and other low catches like that. The amount of counterfeiting must come up too... AA23 vs A234? AA2k vs A23k? Is there an article, thread, simulation, paper or similar that has addressed this before? 2) How do you play flopped two pairs in tournaments? They definately don't have positive EV, unless they are powerful high pairs, but I found that I noted often that my two pairs would of turned into a full house, in addition to me having low. Let me give an example: A456. The flop comes up A48, counterfeiting my low somewhat, but giving me two pair (AA, 44). My low is now ~A4568, but there were 8 players in - someone not having a 23 is difficult, and anyone with a 23 will play for the straight as well... and anyone with a 2x may stay in. Do you stay in PL, when you have to play early and there is already a pot sized raise? As I see it, there bad outs for low... There are four outs for scooping high (A or 4). You are playing for the nuts on high and a low chance of getting low, but the number of outs is daunting. In the last tournament, which I played solidly from start to finish, this situation came up several times, and in at least 2 of them, I would of scooped up a huge pot. The end result was me being stuck a 4500 chips vs a table of 15,000's (3-4), and eventually being knocked out 18th. Maybe backing down got me there, however? What if the low hand changed to A3478 (no straight) or A2467 (no straight, but closer nut)? What if the straight was there in addition to it, A3457/A2456? 3) I noted that one of the chip leaders, positionally, would raise anything at all when it came around to him. Because of his chip size, he stole an awful lot and split an awful lot because people scrammed. Is this a normal strategy? I expected another one of the big stacks to challenge him, but in over 25 games, it didn't happen once. I presume they wanted to make the final table... which makes sense. There were lots of chips moving from the low stacks, none the other way! I don't see any way to punish that behavior that late in the tournament. You can't do it directly, as the chance to split is very high... it takes a co-operative approach, which small stacks just dont have the ability to do. I guess the question is; Is this a viable strategy, or just a unique thing? It was very pronounced in the last one I played in, and it got me to thinking... Of course, the next question is "how do you deal with it?", though perhaps more importantly, does this mean that higher chances should be taken earlier to prevent yourself from being taken advantage of after? How weakened are you with a short stack in Omaha h/l, down to 2-3 tables? It seems more pronounced than in Holdem by a huge margin... is that true? Playing for 18th doesn't make any sense. You need the top table, at least at UB (14.10 on a 11$ entrance? Bleh). Thanks for any advice and comments! | ||
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| Re: Omaha H/L tourny Questions, stdioh, 3. Sep 2003 12:05 | ||
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| You ask some really good questions. I'll see what I can do, though 4 Poker is much more of an Omaha authority than I. > 1) > When you start with good hands, even premium hands - is it wise to raise up > pre-flop if you know it will drive people out? My logic was that it inherently > was unwise to raise with premium low hands. The reasons are Sure...if not with good hands, why would you raise preflop? True that a monster in Omaha has a lot smaller chance of winning than a monster in hold'em, but that's only more of an incentive to drive out competition. If you can cause a 3-handed flop with your AA23 then you're more likely to not get quartered on the low if you make that and more likely that your aces will take the high unimproved. 8 handed you'd be almost certain to chop the low and lose the high unless you made a nut set/tight with your aces. When you get it short like that you also get a lot higher chance of taking the pot by folding off your opponents on the flop. > - anyone with a comparable hand will stay in, therefore reducing the value of > competing with the remaining players. That's a bad argument because a lot of players will call with hands worse than yours still. However, this is a reason why you should be raising only really premium hands. Something like A2KQ with suited ace and suited king isn't something you'd raise with, but something like AA25 with suited aces would be a crime not to raise. > - the different in hand rankings becomes very evident (A234 would have to > pretty much have not hit low at all not to get it). They are very very unlikely > to outdraw you, except possibly high. A234 is an ok hand, but something you want to play multiway. If there was a raise to me and I had A234 I wouldn't want to play it since I'm almost certain to not win the high with it and I don't want to play for half the pot. I'd think about calling if the ace were suited, but I'd need a lot of players in the hand to do it. > It can, however, be wise to raise pre-flop with solid high hands because here > you are in competition and you have the ability to scoop the pot if low doesn't > hit. Therefore you want the lows to stay in, including the nut lows, because > you aren't in competition with them. If your hand does get made, even > marginally, the other lows probably did not and you will scoop a great pot. The > problem lies with flushes and other low catches like that. Indeed, you want to raise with hands that give you a good shot at winning *both* the high and the low. You might still raise something like TJQK for value though. Remember you're not trying to suck along players who hit a third nut and stick around. You're trying to get their money now because they won't stick around unless you're beating them ... if they are the sort that will, they're also the sort to call your raise with crap anyway. > The amount of counterfeiting must come up too... AA23 vs A234? AA2k vs A23k? > > Is there an article, thread, simulation, paper or similar that has addressed > this before? I don't really know what you mean here. AA23 vs A234 is a gigantic favourite. The only way that A234 gets the whole low is if both a 2 and a 3 fall on the board - that's rare considering that 2 of each are already used. likewise, the only straight available exclusively to A234 is a 7-high straight. If there is a 7-high straight, then AA23 gets quartered. Otherwise it's going to get 3/4. Next, AA23 is going to have twice to potential for the nut flush when the aces are suited - when unsuited, they still allow for the "nut bluff" ... you can make an uncounterfeitable nut low and hold the ace of the flush, then bet huge trying to fold off weaker flushes in the notion that you might take it all or that your aces will hold up for high after you deep six your stronger opposition. > 2) > How do you play flopped two pairs in tournaments? They definately don't have > positive EV, unless they are powerful high pairs, but I found that I noted often > that my two pairs would of turned into a full house, in addition to me having > low. Let me give an example: > > A456. The flop comes up A48, counterfeiting my low somewhat, but giving me two > pair (AA, 44). My low is now ~A4568, but there were 8 players in - someone not > having a 23 is difficult, and anyone with a 23 will play for the straight as > well... and anyone with a 2x may stay in. You never want to play your 2 pair except under some very special circumstances. For instance, lets say the board is 29K - rainbow and I'm holding 9QKA ... I've got no shot at anything except for 4 outs to a tight. I'm in a dire way ... BUT, the board is gigantically raggety. It is unlikely that another player is on a set of K's or a set of 9's and a good player will fold bottom set to a bet. There is also no low for anybody to hang onto. This is a great flop to bluff at since you'll only be called by somebody with a wrapper straight draw like TJQA and if they've got a hand good enough to call you in this situation, they are still unlikely to reraise you, so you'll often get a chance at a free card to tighten up then too. > Do you stay in PL, when you have to play early and there is already a pot sized > raise? As I see it, there bad outs for low... There are four outs for scooping > high (A or 4). You are playing for the nuts on high and a low chance of getting > low, but the number of outs is daunting. In the last tournament, which I played > solidly from start to finish, this situation came up several times, and in at > least 2 of them, I would of scooped up a huge pot. The end result was me being > stuck a 4500 chips vs a table of 15,000's (3-4), and eventually being knocked > out 18th. Maybe backing down got me there, however? The trick to PLO8 is to play with terrible opponents. You can throw money around a little at small pots, but when there is real money in a pot play really solid. Play the nuts, great draws to the nuts, and don't chase a nut low draw without a high or bet a made nut low without a decent high draw. > 3) > I noted that one of the chip leaders, positionally, would raise anything at all > when it came around to him. Because of his chip size, he stole an awful lot and > split an awful lot because people scrammed. Is this a normal strategy? I > expected another one of the big stacks to challenge him, but in over 25 games, > it didn't happen once. I presume they wanted to make the final table... which > makes sense. There were lots of chips moving from the low stacks, none the > other way! When you're a giant stack like that you can really shove people around. Generally your steals will work and when you get a caller, a lot of the time you'll get half. Because it is so tight you can raise here with hands like 24KK with a suited king and try the steal. Often you'll get called by a great hand and still take the low with your 24 and sometimes you'll get it all. The short stacks are in a desperate fear now and you can just grind them down much better than in hold'em. > I don't see any way to punish that behavior that late in the tournament. You > can't do it directly, as the chance to split is very high... it takes a > co-operative approach, which small stacks just dont have the ability to do. Exactly. Which is why a chip lead is worth so much more in omaha8 than in hold'em. > I guess the question is; Is this a viable strategy, or just a unique thing? It > was very pronounced in the last one I played in, and it got me to thinking... Of > course, the next question is "how do you deal with it?", though perhaps more > importantly, does this mean that higher chances should be taken earlier to > prevent yourself from being taken advantage of after? How weakened are you with > a short stack in Omaha h/l, down to 2-3 tables? It seems more pronounced than > in Holdem by a huge margin... is that true? Yup, yup, and yup. And you deal with it by folding a lot and taking a shot against him when you've got something good and an intense need to play. > Playing for 18th doesn't make any sense. You need the top table, at least at > UB (14.10 on a 11$ entrance? Bleh). > > Thanks for any advice and comments! No probs. Good luck and I hope to see you at the tables. | ||
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| Re: Omaha H/L tourny Questions, pt_Gatsby, 3. Sep 2003 13:06 | ||
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| Thanks Stdioh :) I had a couple of questions on what you said; > True that a monster in Omaha has a lot smaller chance of winning > than a monster in hold'em, but that's only more of an incentive > to drive out competition. It seems to me a solid hand in Omaha (starting hands only) is much stronger than in Holdem. A hand like AA23 should break positive far more often. Though you are in tougher 'make or break' situations, so are they... I guess I'm asking - In Holdem, there seems to be two schools of thought in driving out people out with AA. From what I can tell, it doesn't make sense to drive people out with AA... Though variance is higher, the expected return seems to favor more people over the long run. I would of thought that power hands in Omaha would be even more so - like AA23, especially suited. > If you can cause a 3-handed flop with your AA23 then you're more > likely to not get quartered on the low if you make that and more > likely that your aces will take the high unimproved. I agree on the high portion of it. However, I find that most people won't stay in unless they have a shot at both - this often means A2/A3 in their hand, and/or a solid high hand (double flush face cards, ect). On the other hand, I can see what you mean when you say that because of the number of cards out there, you are likely to be taken no matter how strong your hand is... But low has very distinct hands - you aren't going to take low without an ace, no matter how your hand matches up. With AA23 you have a near lock on 'low' - granted, two aces are out there, but to match them up with a one of the 2's is not so likely... Lets just say that half the table sees the flop - two of you are absolute playing for low (say, AA23 and A2xx). Even in the worst case scenario, where you get quatered with no high hand (flush fails/straight fails), the more high players there are - there can only be '3' people playing for low, tops - the more equity the pot builds. Assuming all 5 stay in, then for every 1$ you put in, you get 1.25$ (though this can quickly turn around as people bail). More so, you have a much stronger low hand than just about anyone else has... so its's possible that your looking to break his 2nd best, in which case your looking at 2.5$ for each 1, and it is even possible that the A and a pair hit, and you take the whole thing... Never mind the nut flushes you could get as well! > 8 handed you'd be almost certain to chop the low Not that I'm disagreeing, but... why? If you have two aces in hands and presumably the 2/3 (or A23x in general), are you going to be able to drive the other guy out anyway? Maybe I just don't have the expierence, but I find A2xx and even A3xx played an awful lot in this game. Seems you are driving out those that may catch something good but not great while keeping in those that are great. > The trick to PLO8 is to play with terrible opponents. Can't argue there :) But at the end of the tournament, there weren't any to be found! > with hands like 24KK with a suited king and try the steal. I wouldn't of thought of that... Probably why I didn't do well towards the end. Didn't adjust! > And you deal with it by folding a lot and taking a shot against > him when you've got something good and an intense need to play. I was delt 24KK in BB (1/6th of my stack!) and limped in, the flop came up A3x, and I pushed all in after he went to raise - And I managed not to win either. Far as I can tell, this was a huge favorite for me... but no low on the last two cards, and him getting two pair... *sigh* with no low possible for him either. This was my after my third all in that I had split with good hands, just to try to stay alive... I don't think I have gotten frustrated many times, but this whole splitting thing with big stacks is very hard to take! | ||
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| Re: Omaha H/L tourny Questions, stdioh, 3. Sep 2003 15:13 | ||
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| > Thanks Stdioh :) I had a couple of questions on what you said; No problems. I like discussing Omaha strategy since I still have a lot to learn and talking about it helps me too. > It seems to me a solid hand in Omaha (starting hands only) is much stronger than in > Holdem. A hand like AA23 should break positive far more often. Though you are in tougher > 'make or break' situations, so are they... But that's the thing. When you play AA in hold'em when you win, you get the whole pot. While AA23 double suited is a great Omaha hand (hell, it's the best) most of the time you only get half with it. You get half very often, but getting all of it is rare. If you hit your set of aces then your low is counterfeitable and you might only get the top half ... or none of it if your low gets broken and there's a straight on board. If you hit a flush without hitting your aces, the board can pair and you're toast. There are flushes that can come in 2 other suits and most of all, you'll often hit nothing with it. With AA in hold'em you always have a great flop (well when the flop is 7s8s9s it sucks, but that's rare). In Omaha it is very easy to have AA23 double suited and flop 89K without a flush draw. Then what do you have? > I guess I'm asking - In Holdem, there seems to be two schools of thought in driving out > people out with AA. From what I can tell, it doesn't make sense to drive people out with > AA... Though variance is higher, the expected return seems to favor more people over the > long run. Nope. You want to drive people out when you have AA in hold'em, all the time. Basically you'll have bigger pots with more people in, but less chance of winning those pots. As well, by not raising your AA preflop when you know you have the best of it, you are missing out on a lot of value and pot size that way. You want a big pot with a small number of players and that is why you should raise your AA almost all of the time (like 95% of the time). Limp reraising is ok when you're in early position at an agressive table, or limping in late position when it is unopened might be ok if you know the players in the blinds well. > I would of thought that power hands in Omaha would be even more so - like AA23, > especially suited. There are a million ways that the flop can miss you, but also a ton of ways that it can trap you. When you flop only a nut flush draw and a nut low draw for example, you might be able to steal the pot if you were the preflop raiser and if your attempt to steal fails, you've got something to fall back on - you'll probably get half. If you didn't raise preflop, it'll be harder to push people off because there will be enough people in there for somebody to be holding the nuts. Likewise you want money in the pot so that when you hit your hand players will pay you off by thinking they have odds to draw to hands that you can beat. > I agree on the high portion of it. However, I find that most people won't stay in unless > they have a shot at both - this often means A2/A3 in their hand, and/or a solid high hand > (double flush face cards, ect). What do you mean by double flush face cards? You mean four cards over T double suited? That's ok. As for A3 in a hand, you'd need a lot to go with it to call a raise. A3 is no different from 23. > On the other hand, I can see what you mean when you say that because of the number of > cards out there, you are likely to be taken no matter how strong your hand is... But low > has very distinct hands - you aren't going to take low without an ace, no matter how your > hand matches up. With AA23 you have a near lock on 'low' - granted, two aces are out > there, but to match them up with a one of the 2's is not so likely... Yes, but there isn't always a low hand possible. > Lets just say that half the table sees the flop - two of you are absolute playing for low > (say, AA23 and A2xx). Even in the worst case scenario, where you get quatered with no > high hand (flush fails/straight fails), the more high players there are - there can only > be '3' people playing for low, tops - the more equity the pot builds. Assuming all 5 stay Not true. There can be up to 7 players chopping the low. In general yes, there are usually only two players to a low. Nonetheless, you should *never* be putting money into a pot if you expect to get 1/4 of it. > in, then for every 1$ you put in, you get 1.25$ (though this can quickly turn around as > people bail). More so, you have a much stronger low hand than just about anyone else > has... so its's possible that your looking to break his 2nd best, in which case your > looking at 2.5$ for each 1, and it is even possible that the A and a pair hit, and you > take the whole thing... If you can keep 5 people in a hand all the way to the river, please invite me to the game :) > Not that I'm disagreeing, but... why? If you have two aces in hands and presumably the > 2/3 (or A23x in general), are you going to be able to drive the other guy out anyway? > Maybe I just don't have the expierence, but I find A2xx and even A3xx played an awful lot > in this game. Seems you are driving out those that may catch something good but not great > while keeping in those that are great. The thing with pot limit omaha is that you can win by having the absolute nuts or you can win by betting when nobody has it. If you only play when you have the nuts then you need to be up against a lot of players who will call you with second best hands. Raising preflop allows you to play with some versatility as you'll be up against opponents who are not collectively so strong. There are lots of crapulent omaha hands that can make *something*. For instance, lets say that you have the nut straight on the turn, but a flush comes on the river. If there are three of you in the hand, you have a decent possibility of winning, depending on a number of things. If there are 6 in the hand you are almost 100% certain to lose. > > The trick to PLO8 is to play with terrible opponents. > > Can't argue there :) But at the end of the tournament, there weren't any to be found! On UB? I've played O8 tournaments there where 95% of the players were nuts! The final 2 tables were fishier than a typical .25-.50 PLO8 game there. > > with hands like 24KK with a suited king and try the steal. > > I wouldn't of thought of that... Probably why I didn't do well towards the end. Didn't > adjust! Yeah...when you're heads up a lot of hands become playable. When things are tight at the end you have to be willing to gamble. > I was delt 24KK in BB (1/6th of my stack!) and limped in, the flop came up A3x, and I > pushed all in after he went to raise - And I managed not to win either. Far as I can > tell, this was a huge favorite for me... but no low on the last two cards, and him getting > two pair... *sigh* with no low possible for him either. Ugh! No! That's a terrible reraise. When you had your 24KK preflop you might have gone all in there, but once you've seen that flop *and* he's bet at you, what are you hoping to draw to? If you hit a low and don't get counterfeited then you get your money back. If you want to win the high you need to hit a 2 outer on the king or a wheel and then you're certainly not a lock to win it. There are just so many ways to lose that hand outright and while you'll take half most of the time you'll almost never take all. If he had checked to you, bluffing in there would have been great, but when he bets out you've got to release that. > This was my after my third all in that I had split with good hands, just to try to stay > alive... I don't think I have gotten frustrated many times, but this whole splitting thing > with big stacks is very hard to take! Tell me about it. There are few things worse than being a short stack in the end of an Omaha tournament. Flopping the nut low and the nut flush with 4 opponents. Getting all in on the flop and having your low counterfeited by one card while the other pairs the board. | ||
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| Re: Omaha H/L tourny Questions, pt_Gatsby, 3. Sep 2003 16:26 | ||
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| > No problems. I like discussing Omaha strategy since I still have > a lot to learn and talking about it helps me too. I must admit, I love this game. I have been spending way way too much time playing it as of late. It also seems highly profitable.. but more so, its a great deal of fun to play in a competitive (ie: SNG/Tournament) arena. The table games are a bit boring, and I gotta watch for that tilt thing! > But that's the thing. When you play AA in hold'em when you win, > you get the whole pot. While if you lose, you don't get any. I'm not sure how important that aspect is - the splitting I mean. What it seems to translate to is that if they guess wrong and chase the wrong side, you win all of it. If they guess right, you should win half of it (splitting anyone elses). If you guess wrong, you probably will end up taking 3/4 - your AA23 should win low over another weaker A2 hand. > If you hit a flush without hitting your aces, the board can pair and you're toast. While I agree, fundamentally, with what you are saying, this applies to any hand. You aren't always going to get the best hand no matter how good your starting hand. If you get A2sA3s, then the most you can say is that you have the best hand - there are a great deal of flops that will let you win, many that won't really help much, and a few that are auto losses... Not much different than Holdem in that regard. The difference is that you don't HAVE to hit your hand in its entirety. Splitting is fine so long as you are able to play for both... especially since you had the advantage in the first place. As you noted, 6s7s8s popping up is similar to auto-death for AA... but a 6s7s8s with AA23 (offsuit) is just fine. Maybe you'll get a couple of lows fighting tooth and claw and rake in some with your low - or maybe the highs will rake you and another low. The only difference is that you aren't immediately priced out of the hand (which sometimes would be a good thing). That's hard in pot limit, I will say that... Easier to limit your losses in limit (though it works the other way when you have the nuts!) > In Omaha it is very easy to have AA23 double suited > and flop 89K without a flush draw. > Then what do you have? I'll agree that the games have different dynamics (entirely), I disagree with the outlined concept. It seems what you are suggesting is that you shouldn't raise at all to see what you have - didn't you suggest the opposite was true? The flop is over half your hand. It is crucial in omaha because players aren't as locked in with their two cards. With a flop of 3 cards, you have 6 possible hands in omaha, whereas in holdem its still just the best one hand. Because of the extra combinations, you can make hands that wouldn't happen in holdem - thus meaning that someone is going to make something, as they all get 6 hands to work from initially. At the same time, you are playing hit or miss because the hands are very concentrated. A2/A3 is crucial for low - you aren't going to 'catch' low very often without those cards, while having AK in holdem can very often not catch and lose to some pair. For every combination that doesn't help you, there are many that can. You are playing the hands that have multiple possible combinations for you to win, nothing else. Nut flushes, full house, straights and nut low give you a lot of outs going into the flop. None of the players are playing on their value of their current hand - only the estimated future value of it. Shouldn't you make low pay, and shouldn't low not want to pay? High is depending on an improvement to his "AA", low is depending upon co-ordination. Though hard to find any information on hand rankings, I would guess that with hands like AA23, you are going to win moderate amounts (ie: holdem amounts where it goes 1v1 or 2v1 with AA's) when you split, enourmous amounts (4:1+) when you go to scoop the pot, and lose minor amounts if you back down on the flop. Its important to note that when you have low, you can just push for all its worth... though you may get quatered, you are more likely to push out other similar hands... you just want to make sure you have it. I would hazard a guess - and only a guess, no backing for it - that the AA23 double suited hand would win you many times more money than AA would at a full table. In heads up or smaller tables, probably not. How often have you chased a strong high hand, only to find out that the low managed to get that nut flush? The only difference is how you end up playing the hand. I understand the logic of AA in holdem but I have a hard time seeing it in Omaha H/L as well. If you have it, you have it... where as you rarely have it in holdem. > you might be able to steal the pot if you were the preflop > raiser and if your attempt to steal fails Without going into odds, wouldn't you like it if you had a draw to both, and you couldn't drive people out? Personally, if I had 4 card nut flush and 4 cards nut low, I would bet it and accept that I may not hit the right low OR the right flush... but also accept that I might just get both! Why aim for stealing when you have an extremely solid draw hand? How often do you expect to get the flush and/or the low on the flop? I doubt anyone would stay in if you did... but I would also say you should get paid off for playing those odds. If you hit one but not the other on the flop, you may be able to steal the pot if he was aiming for the same thing (different flush, counterfeited his low)... > If you didn't raise preflop, it'll be harder to push people off because > there will be enough people in there for somebody to be holding the nuts. Aren't you aiming for the nuts? Granted, someone may get that pair on the board that makes them a boat - playing with a max of 4 outs. You are playing to an estimated 9 outs for a nut high, and some odd 16 outs for the nut low (if not more, if you haven't been counterfeited at all). Even if they do get the boat, you split. I think, in straight game theory, that's pretty good! > Likewise you want money in the pot so that when you hit > your hand players will pay you off by thinking they have > odds to draw to hands that you can beat. I'm guessing you mean that they would back down at the flop if they thought you had it? That way you make something on a good flop? I would agree that this game is a game of nuts - either you have it or you don't. The first and most important edge is to play hands that develop into the nuts, isn't it? It suggests to me that the more people that are in trying to get to those 'nuts' when you have the best chance, the better. I should note that when I say 'more people' I really mean more people willing to call your bets. With the AA note before, I should of been clear... I don't mean to limp in, but also not price your bets to drive people out... I think the goal should be nothing more than a max/min to get money into the pot (preferably with as few people and the most money). | ||
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| Re: Omaha H/L tourny Questions, 4 POKER, 3. Sep 2003 22:59 | ||
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| Hi, You asked some very good questions, and ones that I think you have most of the answers to already. Strong low hands: The best low hand for this game is A-2-3-4. The hand wants as much volume as possible. It is not a hand that is really expecting to take down the high side, however.....a hand such as this has such great potential for making the low, even if counterfeited, and it also has potential for backing into a high hand as well. Now, if you get A-2-3-4, It's the absolute dream low hand for an Omaha 8 player, and if you get the hand in an EP, limp! If you're closer to the button and there are already callers in front of you......you can put in a value raise here but I would be less apt to raise the hand in a P/L game as opposed to a limit game because the pot can now be raised and even re-raised again, and in P/L that could cost you way too much money, and in a heads up situation, it doesn't fair as well. Now (referring to low holding flops).......depending on how many others call, and depending on what comes up on the flop exactly, AND, how heavy is the betting now at this point....should give you a better indication if you still want to contest for the pot. You don't want to be calling a bet that is too high IF there are not enough players involved and you feel that you're going to get quartered and lose money anyway. However, if there are more than 4 of you in there, if just you and one other opponent share the low, (and you basically don't have a high hand to go with it)......you'll still profit from the hand. If there are exactly 4 players in the pot, and two of you share the low, you'll break out dead even. It's worth it (IMO), to call the initial small raise pre-flop with A-2-3-4, and then take it from there. Now raising with your premium hands should consist of holding all 4 cards that work very well together while the hand should also contain a card that can draw to the high side of the pot as well; like A-2-3-"K", or A-A-3-"Q" (for example), because with holding a K and/or a Q, along with having the Ace in your hand, gives you more outs to hit if the flop comes out with broadway cards (10-J-Q-K-A). However......in P/L Omaha even the strong starting hands still should proceed with caution when raising pre-flop as the pot is likely to get raised and re-raised behind you. In a later position when dealing with just the blinds, I will be more apt to raise with a high hand only hand,and even just a low hand...... but with players who have already called a bet pre-flop, I wouldn't. Decent low starting hands like A-2-9-J are hands that still need to enter the pot with some caution. In a tournament, and especially P/L, if you're UTG with a hand such as that, you don't have to feel the need to call with it just because you hold an Ace/Duece. The hand is not that strong as it may seem to many players. Even your A-A- xx hands are not hands that should always be raised (or even played for that matter), when the two other cards are rags and there's already too many limpers in front of you. (When referring to P/L........just proceed with a little bit more caution pre-flop, and try to make your best play (call, raise or fold) based on what you're trying to achieve, and what play would be more correct depending on who has called a bet yet, if it all). premium hands: A-A-2-3 double suited A-A-2-3 single suited A-A-2-(K,Q,J, or 10) suited A-2-3-K.........ect. (those are just a few). Those hands play well with volume or without. When the hand is double suited or even just a single suited Ace.....the hand will still play well against multiple opponents, especially if you connect to the nuts for high. So if you play the A-A-2-3 or the A-2-3-K (for example) heads up or multi-way, if you flop something really strong in both directions, you would want there to be enough players in the pot with you to really make additional money when you take a piece for the low (however much that is, ie, 1/2, 1/4,/1/8......but, you also get another 1/2 of the pot for completing the nut flush (for example). If you play the hand heads up and you 3/4 the other player, he will obviously lose some money there, and depending on how experienced and "knowledgeable" he is in this game......the very amount that you do win from him will vary. Hands like 10-J-Q-K are playable hands from the right position. They will have more value to them if you can come in cheaply in a late position. Playing them in an upfront position can cause this hand to only get raised out of the pot by players who are behind you with either much stronger holdings, or even by someone who just wants to raise with whatever he has because he thinks it's a raising hand. BUT.......whatever types of hands that players will raise with here really don't matter because you don't want to be putting in too many bets with a high wrap holding, especially when the hand doesn't contain at least a suited Ace to go with it. The stronger the holding, especially one that works in both directions, the easier and more liberal you can be with entering the pot from an EP. The less stronger the holding is, like A-3-10-J suited (for example), the more information you're going to need in front of you, before you think about making a call; meaning.....strong hands play well in all positions, while the more questionable yet playable hands should only be played in a more "perfect" spot, and for as little as possible, (unless of course you're trying to steal the pot). Flopping two pair: From your example of flopping Aces and Fours......with a flop of A-4-8, you aren't drawing to the nut high if the board pairs on the turn with the Ace. Aces and Eights would beat you there........and, if the Four pairs on the turn, you would/could have the third best full house as anyone with pocket 8's would have you beat, and anyone with pocket A's would have you beat as well. Your low hand that you have with it is very weak (as you stated), and depending on just how many players are in here with that flop, WILL make a difference on your decision to call, bet, or fold. Heads up play?.......easier to call AND/or bet. Several opponents?.......very tough call. Multiple opponents?.......a clear fold because it'll be *much more likely* to see someone turn over the nuts for high and/or for low as well. A chip leader in this game when playing tournament style will raise a lot of hands pre-flop as even the very best of the starting hands for Omaha 8, are really not that much of a favorite to the other hands. Sure, they will connect many more times, and they are definitely your true money-makers.....however, when playing in a tournament, many pots are taken down with average to weak holdings and many tornaments are won this way, due to the short term luck factor. An important factor to winning in Omaha 8 (IMHO), is to play very solidly and strict pre-flop, and having a great understanding of knowing when to continue after the flop, and when to throw your hand away and wait until you flop something that is really strong for your holding, and not get confused by putting in bets with hands that are second best, or ones that you have to think too much when the flop comes up. To me, that's a sure sign that my holding (no matter how good it was pre-flop), is really one that I shouldn't be continuing with any further. You'll know when the flop really fits your holding and when it does not. (Example: your two pair, Aces/fours flop with a weak low against several opponents). Stay extremely disciplined AT ALL TIMES and you'll show good results. You seem to know more than the average player already. Anyway........these are just my thoughts; nothing is ever in stone.....just stay disciplined and have patience. It'll take you a long way in this game. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Omaha H/L tourny Questions, pt_Gatsby, 4. Sep 2003 08:58 | ||
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| Thanks for taking the time 4 Poker - it definately covered everything! Just a few minor questions, I hope you don't mind. > The hand wants as much volume as possible. By volume you mean more players staying in to bet - ie: not more pot volume with a single player, right? That way for every bet you get in, you have a chance of earning more than the 1/4 you may end up recieving (ie: 4 people calling all bets or more)? So with A234 - a distinctly low hand that may draw into a straight - you want to limp in the marjority of the time... the logic being both volume and keeping the pot smaller in PL? Just trying to understand the logic rather than the rule :) > A chip leader in this game when playing tournament > style will raise a lot of hands pre-flop as even the > very best of the starting hands for Omaha 8, are really > not that much of a favorite to the other hands. I must admit, I'm having a very hard time with this. I would of said the exact opposite - bad hands in omaha are really bad, while good hands have many many combinations that work out to very good hands... Least, I have been playing with that in mind. I don't mean that hands can work on their own, rather that as far as strategy goes, you must play hands that play 'strongly', which I translate to 'many ways'. However, if you take a couple of hands - premium hands - like AA23ds or AAKQds, and match them up to random hands, even hands that are competitive (a2xx, 4card straights), the hands above would take far more pots by virtue that they will create the nuts far more often. Having said that, I guess these hands come around even more rarely than premium hands in holdem - at least, I haven't ever gotten AA23ds yet! In a tournament with a fixed number of time/hands, the middle hands will show up much more often - thus chip leaders will play middle hands pretty much everytime because the difference between them isn't larger... On that note, what happens if you are the chip leader using this basic strategy to throw off the opponents, but your hand misses - and you play first? Does it still come down to knowing your opponent, or do you raise it up on the basis that he probably won't hit both high and low with a random hand? I guess complete misses can be thrown, unless you know the person... > is to play very solidly and strict pre-flop This I have been doing... least, most of the time :) > and having a great understanding of knowing when to continue after the flop Not so good at yet! > ones that you have to think too much when the flop comes up. My friend and I exchange SnG or tournament (or even ring game) histories with the intent to critique each other's play. I'm finding that Omaha H/L requires a great deal of thought - some of our critiques have gone on for quite some time... (Especially when we start talking about outs!). Maybe just the learning curve... How much calculation is a factor? For new players, it takes a while just to get use to the multiple combinations - never mind thinking about what the opponent can have. Its also hard to learn how to play with fewer players (2-4), where having a K flush is probably enough to take high, whereas you probably wouldn't want to do that in a larger game... I still find myself going "8 outs for straigh, 8 outs for nut flush, 16 outs for low, 12 outs for counterfeiting my low" and trying to tabulate the hand... By the end of any tournament, I'm about as mentally drained as I could be! > (Example: your two pair, Aces/fours flop with > a weak low against several opponents). Your explanation solved that problem! Won't be doing that anytime soon. Thanks again! | ||
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| Re: Omaha H/L tourny Questions, 4 POKER, 4. Sep 2003 21:36 | ||
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| on 4. Sep 2003 08:58 pt_Gatsby wrote: (my replies are beneath your Q's). 4P- > Thanks for taking the time 4 Poker - it definately covered everything! Just a few minor > questions, I hope you don't mind. *Not at all. > > > > The hand wants as much volume as possible. > > By volume you mean more players staying in to bet - ie: not more pot volume with a > single player, right? That way for every bet you get in, you have a chance of earning > more than the 1/4 you may end up recieving (ie: 4 people calling all bets or more)? > > So with A234 - a distinctly low hand that may draw into a straight - you want to limp in > the marjority of the time... the logic being both volume and keeping the pot smaller in > PL? Just trying to understand the logic rather than the rule :) **Exactly! By limping in and allowing as many players in as possible will give you a very good chance if you do hit the nut low, to make a profit, and, you also may be able to even raise when you do flop the low because you have "protection" with your other nut low cards as well; but I would be more apt to wait for the turn to raise the pot because that is where players will be willing to call raises if they "back into" something and think they can win half of a big pot......ie, making their straights on the turn....their flushes.......their full houses......whatever. I don't want to raise them out on the flop with my strong low because that may cause too many of them to just fold; and why would you want to fold off all the players and play against only one opponent who obviously has a high hand?....you wouldn't make any money on your really strong low holding......one that we all dream of getting dealt!! LOL! Volume(lots of players) all the way to the river! Now...........(getting back to the A-2-3-4 types of holdings).......Sometimes a player will hold an A-2 with you. The two of you both flop the nut low. Now.....there may be other players in the pot that are betting and/or raising on their "high" hands that they flopped (or that they are drawing to etc.), and you and the other A-2 will be calling the bets, BUT, if that other player gets "bricked" (counterfeited) on the turn and/or river card.......you can now take the entire half of the pot for yourself because you had an "unbreakable low holding",ie, protection with the 3 and/or the 4. It doesn't always happen that way, but when it does it's very sweet!!! $$$. > > > > A chip leader in this game when playing tournament > > style will raise a lot of hands pre-flop as even the > > very best of the starting hands for Omaha 8, are really > > not that much of a favorite to the other hands. > > I must admit, I'm having a very hard time with this. I would of said the exact opposite > - bad hands in omaha are really bad, while good hands have many many combinations that > work out to very good hands... Least, I have been playing with that in mind. I don't mean > that hands can work on their own, rather that as far as strategy goes, you must play hands > that play 'strongly', which I translate to 'many ways'. > > However, if you take a couple of hands - premium hands - like AA23ds or AAKQds, and match > them up to random hands, even hands that are competitive (a2xx, 4card straights), the > hands above would take far more pots by virtue that they will create the nuts far more > often. > > Having said that, I guess these hands come around even more rarely than premium hands in > holdem - at least, I haven't ever gotten AA23ds yet! In a tournament with a fixed number > of time/hands, the middle hands will show up much more often - thus chip leaders will play > middle hands pretty much everytime because the difference between them isn't larger... > > On that note, what happens if you are the chip leader using this basic strategy to throw > off the opponents, but your hand misses - and you play first? Does it still come down to > knowing your opponent, or do you raise it up on the basis that he probably won't hit both > high and low with a random hand? I guess complete misses can be thrown, unless you know > the person... **My point when referring to a premium holding vs. a random hand was.......geared more towards tournament play, and when a person is the chip leader, many times he will raise with rougher holdings, and if you're a short stack you'd have a tough time calling a big bet preflop unless your own holding was pretty strong, and for that reason, the CL gets to bully the table a little bit more until he gets caught! Now.....if you do raise the pot as the CL and your hand misses completely......a lot will have to do with how well you know your opponents and how much of a bet (whether a pot sized bet, or what have you), could get him to throw his hand away. But personally, in a P/L tourney I can't say that I have much experience making that type of move. My strategies for Omaha 8 are based on limit play, but I do get away with making some weird bluffs that allow me to take down the pot, but I don't try it too often unless the spot is just right. To make that type of play in a tournament would mean that you really are willing to risk your chips by gambling AND really knowing your opponet well. It's done all the time in NL and it IS done in Omaha as well.......it's just harder to pull off IMO because your both holding 4 cards as opposed to just two. > > > > is to play very solidly and strict pre-flop > > This I have been doing... least, most of the time :) > > > and having a great understanding of knowing when to continue after the flop > > Not so good at yet! > > > ones that you have to think too much when the flop comes up. > > My friend and I exchange SnG or tournament (or even ring game) histories with the intent > to critique each other's play. I'm finding that Omaha H/L requires a great deal of > thought - some of our critiques have gone on for quite some time... (Especially when we > start talking about outs!). Maybe just the learning curve... > > How much calculation is a factor? For new players, it takes a while just to get use to > the multiple combinations - never mind thinking about what the opponent can have. Its > also hard to learn how to play with fewer players (2-4), where having a K flush is > probably enough to take high, whereas you probably wouldn't want to do that in a larger > game... > > I still find myself going "8 outs for straigh, 8 outs for nut flush, 16 outs for low, 12 > outs for counterfeiting my low" and trying to tabulate the hand... By the end of any > tournament, I'm about as mentally drained as I could be! > > > (Example: your two pair, Aces/fours flop with > > a weak low against several opponents). > > Your explanation solved that problem! Won't be doing that anytime soon. **Yeah, a good rule of thumb for me is.......the more players seeing the flop with me, the stronger and "nuttier" my own hand has to be. It took me quite some time to throw my hands away when I first started as I use to think that top two etc. was "good enough", but I found out that if you really can discipline yourself perfectly to throw your hand away, especially in multi-way pots, when your own hand just doesn't quite fit the flop.....you will save soooo many bets by waiting for when you DO flop perfect with redraw and can now be really aggresive as well. It takes time and a lot of it! You'll notice yourself too that SOMEONE ALWAYS has the nuts!!!.......make sure you have a nut low or a nut high too when you're putting your money into the pot!! Heads up play?........much easier to call a bet with the second nut flush and a decent low, but in multi-way pots, you really do have to have at least one nut holding to either side of the hand. ** I hope some of my thoughts will be of use to you because the majority of my play in Omaha 8,is limit, although I have dabbled a bit in P/L "live" games as well. However, if I'm off base a little bit here with the betting strategies, try to weed through my sentences! > Thanks again! **Yuppers!! 4P- > > | ||
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| Re: Omaha H/L tourny Questions, Mark Gregorich, 4. Sep 2003 00:38 | ||
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| My reply to your post is limited to what I would do in limit Omaha 8/b tournament situations (I have played the game pot limit, but I'm honestly not sure I know what I'm doing, so I'd better not comment on it). Your first question deals with the merits of raising preflop to narrow the field with low hands versus high hands. In a tournament situation, I generally ask myself the question "can I win the pot immediately with a raise?" If the answer is yes, based on how the table is playing and who the blinds are (its always helpful to know how stubborn the big blind is), then I will generally go ahead and raise, even with hands that may play well multiway. This is especially true later in a tournament, when the blinds are worth picking up; whereas earlier I may limp to try to induce some action. If a raise will still mean I'll get 4 or 5 callers, I'll only raise with hands that play well multiway (A23x suited, A24xsuited types of hands). BTW, its helpful if the "x" card is a king or queen, as it adds to your high potential. If a raise will still be likely to get me multiway action, I will never raise with high only hands, or AAxx type hands. However, I may raise with AKQT later in a tournament if the table (especially the blinds)are playing tight and I have good position. Your second question deals with flopping two pair. Sometimes this makes you happy and sometimes it makes you curse in omaha 8/b. For the example you give (flop of A48 when you hold A456), I may have either reaction, depending upon the number of players in the pot. Headsup, as you often are in the later stages of a tournament, I would consider this to be an excellent flop for my hand (my opponent must use all 4 of his cards to beat me at this point, which is highly unlikely; also, if he has a better low I may outdraw him if he gets counterfeited and win the whole pot). However, against 4 or more opponents, this hand most likely belongs in the muck (possibly with 3 as well, depending upon the action). Multiway pots in omaha are generally won by the nuts or close to them, and your only nut draws here are for half the pot, and these are somewhat dicey. Your third point deals with the aggressiveness of one of the chip leaders, who raised with many marginal hands. In my experience of playing omaha tournaments, the best player in my opinion at tournament omaha 8/b is Scotty Nguyen, and he is extremely aggressive at the later stages of a tournament. He will raise if first in in decent position with hands like A68T, knowing he is likely to be called only by a blind hand, if at all. Then, he gets to play his hand in position, and hands like this aren't too big of dogs against decent blind-defending types of hands (A36J, for example), especially given his positional advantage (which allows him to steal pots when his opponents miss the flop). I hope this is relevant to your questions (I'm pretty tired as I'm writing this, so I'm not sure I stayed on the topic very well) Mark | ||
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| Re: Omaha H/L tourny Questions, pt_Gatsby, 4. Sep 2003 09:14 | ||
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| Hi Mark, thanks for everything! For the raising preflop - is there any hand you think is absolutely worth raising? It seems like raising is based only on your read of the table (will it steal,ect)... Do you have any hands that have 'value' in betting before the flop? > is Scotty Nguyen, and he is extremely aggressive at the later stages of a tournament. I'll have to find some of his tourney reports... > He will raise if first in in decent position with hands like A68T, > knowing he is likely to be called only by a blind hand, if at all. > Then, he gets to play his hand in position, and hands like this aren't > too big of dogs against decent blind-defending types of hands > (A36J, for example), especially given his positional advantage > (which allows him to steal pots when his opponents miss the flop). This is probably where I'm missing a lot of bets... this strategy part I'm not familiar with. I never really thought about it, but I would fold without a very strong hand - it seems, however, that if you are dealing with a fair bit of chips (ie: you are not the one shortstacked), it makes sense to stay in till the flop. Position becomes critical, because if you are of a decent size, you may be able to play the game better than the raiser - that is, raise to drive him out. Guess that would work so long as it threatened him, hard to do with a big stack. | ||
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| Re: Omaha H/L tourny Questions, Mark Gregorich, 4. Sep 2003 11:10 | ||
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| I think quite a few hands are worth raising in Omaha 8/b tournaments. In the middle and late stages of the tournament, there won't be so many multi-way pots, and a preflop raise will generally help narrow the field. Hands such as AAxx (preferably with one wheel card at least) should definitely be raised if you are the first one in. One additional reason for this is that you are holding half the aces, and these are the cards people should (must?) have in their hand in order to play for a raise. Thus, there are only 2 left, and if they aren't coordinated in your opponents hands, you'll frequently win the pot without a fight. This is one reason why I generally don't try to steal without an ace - its just too likely someone behind you will be loaded. Other hands have some power and can be raised (or reraised) as well. Any combination of A2Kx is pretty powerful against one opponent, as you will sometimes win the pot with your kicker when an ace flops (assuming you both have an ace), and this comes into play more often than you would expect in shorthanded pots. So, in the later stages of a tournament, assuming a decent chip position, if one player opened for a raise and it was up to me, I will frequently reraise with A2Kx, particularly if my fourth card is NOT a 9 (worthless- even 8's have some value in head-up situations, allowing for an "emergency" low if you get counterfeited at some point). However, if there are already several players in the pot, I will only raise with good volume hands (A23x, A25K doublesuited,etc.). Mark | ||
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