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Server Time: 12/1/2008 1:41:11 PM PACIFIC |
 %&$#@% pocket 10's, EC, 2. Sep 2003 23:47 | ||
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| I'd like some advice, as I've mentioned before I'm pretty new at no limit. Although I'm pretty OK with how I did tonight at Hollywood Park (I cleared about 2/3 of the field, 250+ players), I'm not happy with my rapid downfall from chip leader to "on my way home." Chalk that up to picking the wrong moments to make aggressive bluffs and steals. Here's a hand I'd like to get some thoughts on. What would you do in my shoes? I'm about medium stacked with about T5500. Blinds are 300/600, antes are 75. I'm in MP with wired 10s. I haven't seen good cards in a while so I'm liking them. Player UTG (haven't seen much of him but seems fairly solid, not overly aggressive), who has a nearly identical stack to me, raises 1600 to go. I call, so does the big stack who is on the button. At this point, 1600 is the biggest pre-flop raise anyone has seen, other than the all-ins. First question- what do you do pre-flop? 1600 indicates to me a weak big hand, something like AK that he would want to steal with but wouldn't mind a call. He would have raised less or limped with KK or AA. I'm OK with my call, I'd like to hear others. The flop comes down QJx, with two diamonds. UTG quickly goes all in. As I'm contemplating, they're announcing that the next round, the blinds and antes go up. I'm also seeing the button clearly about to fold. So now there's over 10k in the pot, it would take virtually my whole stack (4k) to call. I have a feeling I'm beat, but a few things make me call- the blinds will eat me alive very soon, I do have outs, he could have AK giving him a gutshot or possibly a flush draw (or both), or he could have a pocket pair less than mine and he's making a play. We're at the point in the tourney where unbridled aggression is typically rewarded. No real need to tell me which mistakes I made, I just want some thoughts on what you would do in a similar situation. And what would you put him on? To finish the hand, he had AQ, I improved to an open-ended straight draw on the turn but couldn't get the straight or a 10, so I'm home now. Eli | ||
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| Re: %&$#@% pocket 10's, kennycatkiller, 3. Sep 2003 08:19 | ||
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| Pocket Jacks, Tens, and Nines are troublesome hands to play in N/L Hold-Em. There probably is no right way to play them. But, in my opinion, you have but two options (not three, as you took one I would not consider--calling). You could either raise all in or fold. At the stage of the tournament you were at, I would still opt to FOLD, But, then again, you have never seen my picture in Card Player as the winner of a huge tournament. Good Luck, HONEST_KEN | ||
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| Now that's a disclaimer, Dr_Monkey, 3. Sep 2003 09:16 | ||
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| on 3. Sep 2003 08:19 kennycatkiller wrote: > But, then again, you have never seen my picture in Card Player as the winner of a > huge tournament. | ||
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| Re: %&$#@% pocket 10's, noiseboy, 3. Sep 2003 08:51 | ||
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| It's tough to lay those down, especially after a long dry spell of trash hands, but with that flop and him coming out at you with an all-in bet, it's just too risky to call unless you have a dead read on the guy as bluffing. I LIKE pocket TT's, it's probably my "pet" hand as I have been getting it in the tourney's lately and winning with it. However, I like the TT's when I am the aggressor, once others start showing a lot of aggression, I'm usually forced to back off if there are overcards. It's a good hand, but more of a betting hand than a calling hand, unless I have a read that someone is desperate or bluffing. | ||
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| Re: %&$#@% pocket 10's, EC, 3. Sep 2003 09:23 | ||
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| I'd like to follow up my own post with some other thoughts, since I've had time to sleep on this one. The more I think about it, the more I think "what was I thinking," and if I had given the hand more thought at the table I would have made the difficult laydown. I can't see going all in pre-flop with it though after the big bet in front of me, since at that point I would be risking my whole stack on what would likely be (and what was) a coin toss. I've just got to suck this one up and chalk it up to a learning experience. I got stars in my eyes with such a big pot in front of me, which would have made me a massive chip leader at the table at a crucial stage- I probably could have walked into the money with it. Noiseboy- I know what you mean about TT, it's one of my pet hands too, I feel like I've won a lot with it. I was perhaps overly excited when I saw it after seeing nothing but crap for a while and I really didn't like the raise in front of me, I had been having success at that table putting the screws on everyone else and despite my dwindling stack, they still respected me there. Sort of took the thunder away from my good hand. I'm still trying really hard to keep a PMA about the whole experience, this was only my second NL tourney and, as I found with limit tourneys, some of the biggest adjustments to make are to learn the pacing, adjust for the ever increasing blinds, the value of having a big stack and how to defend it, etc. I'm also really working on learning betting patterns in NL- knowing what the size of the bet signifies. Still having fun though, that's whats important. And I've noticed lately that my posts are way too long, anyone out there is free to tell me to stop rambling. But it's either write long posts or actually get some work done, so... Eli on 2. Sep 2003 23:47 EC wrote: > I'd like some advice, as I've mentioned before I'm pretty new at no limit. > Although I'm pretty OK with how I did tonight at Hollywood Park (I cleared about > 2/3 of the field, 250+ players), I'm not happy with my rapid downfall from chip > leader to "on my way home." Chalk that up to picking the wrong moments to make > aggressive bluffs and steals. Here's a hand I'd like to get some thoughts on. > What would you do in my shoes? > > I'm about medium stacked with about T5500. Blinds are 300/600, antes are 75. > I'm in MP with wired 10s. I haven't seen good cards in a while so I'm liking > them. Player UTG (haven't seen much of him but seems fairly solid, not overly > aggressive), who has a nearly identical stack to me, raises 1600 to go. I call, > so does the big stack who is on the button. At this point, 1600 is the biggest > pre-flop raise anyone has seen, other than the all-ins. > > First question- what do you do pre-flop? 1600 indicates to me a weak big hand, > something like AK that he would want to steal with but wouldn't mind a call. He > would have raised less or limped with KK or AA. I'm OK with my call, I'd like > to hear others. > > The flop comes down QJx, with two diamonds. UTG quickly goes all in. As I'm > contemplating, they're announcing that the next round, the blinds and antes go > up. I'm also seeing the button clearly about to fold. So now there's over 10k > in the pot, it would take virtually my whole stack (4k) to call. I have a > feeling I'm beat, but a few things make me call- the blinds will eat me alive > very soon, I do have outs, he could have AK giving him a gutshot or possibly a > flush draw (or both), or he could have a pocket pair less than mine and he's > making a play. We're at the point in the tourney where unbridled aggression is > typically rewarded. > > No real need to tell me which mistakes I made, I just want some thoughts on > what you would do in a similar situation. And what would you put him on? > > To finish the hand, he had AQ, I improved to an open-ended straight draw on the > turn but couldn't get the straight or a 10, so I'm home now. > > > Eli > | ||
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| Re: %&$#@% pocket 10's, Risky Business, 3. Sep 2003 09:32 | ||
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| Instead of your position, look at his... You pretty much told him you didn't have anything better than his A-Q, which is why he could afford to go all-in after the flop and take the pot without showing, or play with his best hand. Why? If you were slowplaying Aces or Kings pre-flop......you shouldn't be at that point. Therefore, his only nightmare would be for you to have J-J or outdraw him. On a personal note, I hate 10-10. I've lost 2 tournaments with them and in fact, I made the same mistake, in a way. I actually led into a board containing 2 overcards on the flop. The caller had both, and I was done. | ||
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| Re: %&$#@% pocket 10's, noiseboy, 3. Sep 2003 10:19 | ||
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| In limit tourney's, I've actually had pretty good results leading into overcards with the TT's. If anyone calls or raises, I'm done with the hand of course. Usually this is only something I would do heads-up and mostly when the overcard(s) do not include an A and I sense weakness. That's just me, I do a lot of representing later in the tourney when the blinds are high and a lot of players get cautious. Also, since I play uber-tight early, people tend to believe me. However, I've seen other people be successful with just the opposite philosophy. | ||
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| Re: %&$#@% pocket 10's, Dr_Monkey, 3. Sep 2003 09:28 | ||
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| I am no expert but here are my thoughts. The UTG bets 1600, which was the largest raise you have seen that night. I think you have 2 options. 1) Raise ALL IN 2) FOLD Raising should give you guys heads up. If you are right about him holding a weak big hand, AK, he might fold. Or he could gamble and after committing 1600 he just might. An ace on the flop beats you even if he is holding Ax. By calling you let him see the flop and get more information. The flop was very painful for you. Q and J both beat you. He might have had AJ maybe KJ. Folding probably is what I would do here. Granted you haven't seen great cards, but 10 10 isn't great after seeing a 1600 raise. 5500 and the blinds going up is not life or death. You aren't dead yet. on 2. Sep 2003 23:47 EC wrote: > I'd like some advice, as I've mentioned before I'm pretty new at no limit. > Although I'm pretty OK with how I did tonight at Hollywood Park (I cleared about > 2/3 of the field, 250+ players), I'm not happy with my rapid downfall from chip > leader to "on my way home." Chalk that up to picking the wrong moments to make > aggressive bluffs and steals. Here's a hand I'd like to get some thoughts on. > What would you do in my shoes? > > I'm about medium stacked with about T5500. Blinds are 300/600, antes are 75. > I'm in MP with wired 10s. I haven't seen good cards in a while so I'm liking > them. Player UTG (haven't seen much of him but seems fairly solid, not overly > aggressive), who has a nearly identical stack to me, raises 1600 to go. I call, > so does the big stack who is on the button. At this point, 1600 is the biggest > pre-flop raise anyone has seen, other than the all-ins. > > First question- what do you do pre-flop? 1600 indicates to me a weak big hand, > something like AK that he would want to steal with but wouldn't mind a call. He > would have raised less or limped with KK or AA. I'm OK with my call, I'd like > to hear others. > > The flop comes down QJx, with two diamonds. UTG quickly goes all in. As I'm > contemplating, they're announcing that the next round, the blinds and antes go > up. I'm also seeing the button clearly about to fold. So now there's over 10k > in the pot, it would take virtually my whole stack (4k) to call. I have a > feeling I'm beat, but a few things make me call- the blinds will eat me alive > very soon, I do have outs, he could have AK giving him a gutshot or possibly a > flush draw (or both), or he could have a pocket pair less than mine and he's > making a play. We're at the point in the tourney where unbridled aggression is > typically rewarded. > > No real need to tell me which mistakes I made, I just want some thoughts on > what you would do in a similar situation. And what would you put him on? > > To finish the hand, he had AQ, I improved to an open-ended straight draw on the > turn but couldn't get the straight or a 10, so I'm home now. > > > Eli > | ||
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| Re: %&$#@% pocket 10's, palman, 3. Sep 2003 10:27 | ||
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| I don't see how this is a huge laydown. When someone puts you all in for all your chips, you don't want to be calling it with 2 overcards on the board. | ||
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| Re: %&$#@% pocket 10's, noiseboy, 3. Sep 2003 12:12 | ||
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| he meant the laydown before the flop. After the flop, I'd lay it down pretty easily, unless I thought the guy was making a move. | ||
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| Re: %&$#@% pocket 10's, EC, 3. Sep 2003 13:28 | ||
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| I actually did mean on the flop, but I chose my words incorrectly- I meant it was a tough laydown only in the sense that there was a huge pot (biggest one of the night), winning it would have allowed me to go on cruise control, I was invested heavily in it, and I was soooo close. In hindsight, the obvious choice to lay it down has become much more clear. I didn't go all in over the top pre-flop because he most likely had AK, JJ or QQ, he may have had pocket pairs under 10 but I wouldn't expect it. I don't think he would have laid down any of those hands to an over the top bet. With AK its a coin toss and the other two I'm dead meat, so I wanted to be able to get out of it if necessary (which, ironically, it was...) Eli on 3. Sep 2003 12:12 noiseboy wrote: > he meant the laydown before the flop. After the flop, I'd lay it down pretty easily, > unless I thought the guy was making a move. | ||
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| Re: %&$#@% pocket 10's, Schuster, 3. Sep 2003 14:46 | ||
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| > I didn't go all in over the top pre-flop because he most likely had AK, JJ or QQ, he may have > had pocket pairs under 10 but I wouldn't expect it. I don't think he would have laid down any > of those hands to an over the top bet. With AK its a coin toss and the other two I'm dead > meat, so I wanted to be able to get out of it if necessary (which, ironically, it was...) If you felt it was most likely that he had one of these hands, why did you call the bet? If he has either QQ, JJ, AK, or AQ, it is a -EV play in the long term to call. You're not much of a favorite to AK or AQ, but a huge dog to QQ. Yes your tens are pretty, but I think you have to let them go here, before the flop. After the flop, it's a no brainer. Even if he's on a total bluff, the only hand that he would be behind with is AK, and he still has 8 outs to beat you (2 of those give you redraws to full, the 2 tens, but you still aren't a monster favorite). If you invested half your stack with KK, the flop came rags, and someone moved in and showed you aces, would you call? Of course not. Don't throw away good money after bad just trying to get a big score. Lee | ||
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| Re: %&$#@% pocket 10's, Jav, 3. Sep 2003 10:28 | ||
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| If you were the first one in, then your pocket 10's would be a good hand to raise with. You could hope to win the blinds, but would feel okay with a call. Once someone else has raised, you have to be more cautious. At this point you really are facing a raise or fold situation. I don't think you want to flat call the bet. You don't want to let anyone else in the pot if you do play it. It didn't matter in your circumstance, but generally with three people in you have a much lower chance for your 10's to hold up. Whether you raise or fold depends a lot on what your read on the other player is. But once you do play that hand, and two overcards flop, you have to be thinking get out as cheaply as you can. You can't go over the top of him, and he can't fold. The only way you could win now is if he is bluffing. You don't want to take too many chances like that or you'll be busted out. (I'm sure you realize this....) Anyway sorry to hear you didn't make the money. Keep playing a good solid game and get the next one! | ||
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