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Server Time: 12/1/2008 5:20:01 PM PACIFIC |
 New player needs advice, Dayne Gingrich, 2. Sep 2003 16:58 | ||
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| First of all, what a great site... just found it. I'm so impressed that the more experienced players are so willing to help the beginners. Don't see that too often. O.k., I am a new hold 'em player trying to figure out the best way of going about things. I have done a lot of reading on strategies, played with friends, and online (the two styles very different). I am pretty conservative with everything I do in life, which seems to be the exact opposite of how I should be playing hold 'em. I am discipline on which hands to get in on, but couldn't that also tip-off my opponents? I would consider myself pretty tight, pre-flop, but it doesn't seem to do me much good all of the time because my friends are pretty loose and will play much more than I will. I find myself watching more than playing, even though I know my cards sucked... gets frustrating WATCHING all the action. So, then I'll decide to play looser... and of course I just end up filling the pot and folding on the turn... or even worse, on the river... Now THAT drives me crazy: Trying to make something happen and just ending up folding before the showdown... all the while giving my cash away. How do I play tight and "correct", yet still get into the action? How do I bet pre and post flop that will give me the best chances of making something happen? It's easy when I've got the nuts, but how about when I've just got an ok hand (two pair, etc)... which seems to be most of the time. Can you take the pot with just an ok hand or is it going to take something monster all of the time? I've got so much more to ask, but I'll stop now. If you've gotten this far in my post, you are a very patiant person. Thanks for any advice given. -Dayne | ||
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| Re: New player needs advice, EC, 2. Sep 2003 17:22 | ||
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| Since for reasons unknown today I'm of a military mind, think of your strategy as that of surgical strikes as opposed to carpet bombing. You will rarely go into a hand, but when you do you are highly focused on winning that hand and doing everything you can to maximize your profit. Your looser friends are content to play every damn thing, win some, lose more, and run out of chips faster. Carpet bombing. You can figure out pretty easily which I prefer. Ask yourself this- what bothers you more, watching from the sidelines or playing looser and knowing that you're throwing money away? It's just the nature of poker that a good player will feel bored, but you should use that time wisely, picking up information about the other bettors. That and learning cool chip tricks will keep you busy. As for your specific betting questions, like everyone else will likely say, it depends. No two situations are completely the same. Do keep one thing in mind though, I'll paraphrase Roy Cooke (from his newest book, a good one Roy)- if you find yourself never losing at showdown, you're playing too tight. You're going to have to lose with some good hands (and 2 pair typically is), otherwise you are playing too tight and too easy to bluff, and you'd be surprised sometimes to see what the best hand often is. Eli on 2. Sep 2003 16:58 Dayne Gingrich wrote: > First of all, what a great site... just found it. I'm so impressed that the more > experienced players are so willing to help the beginners. Don't see that too > often. > O.k., I am a new hold 'em player trying to figure out the best way of going > about things. I have done a lot of reading on strategies, played with friends, > and online (the two styles very different). > I am pretty conservative with everything I do in life, which seems to be the > exact opposite of how I should be playing hold 'em. I am discipline on which > hands to get in on, but couldn't that also tip-off my opponents? I would > consider myself pretty tight, pre-flop, but it doesn't seem to do me much good > all of the time because my friends are pretty loose and will play much more than > I will. I find myself watching more than playing, even though I know my cards > sucked... gets frustrating WATCHING all the action. So, then I'll decide to play > looser... and of course I just end up filling the pot and folding on the turn... > or even worse, on the river... Now THAT drives me crazy: Trying to make > something happen and just ending up folding before the showdown... all the while > giving my cash away. > How do I play tight and "correct", yet still get into the action? How do I bet > pre and post flop that will give me the best chances of making something happen? > It's easy when I've got the nuts, but how about when I've just got an ok hand > (two pair, etc)... which seems to be most of the time. Can you take the pot with > just an ok hand or is it going to take something monster all of the time? > I've got so much more to ask, but I'll stop now. If you've gotten this far in > my post, you are a very patiant person. Thanks for any advice given. > -Dayne | ||
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| Re: New player needs advice, kennycatkiller, 2. Sep 2003 17:45 | ||
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| You are absolutely correct in being very selective with your starting hands. Patience is a virtue! I know it is difficult to go for round after round without ever picking up a premium start, but that is exactly what you have to do. You want to enter a pot when you have positive expectation--that is, you expect to get a return of more than you are risking times the percent of time you will win. The top pros teach you to be selective, but aggressive when you do get involved. Your loose friends would not last long in a real game in Vegas or in LA. You simply can not play any two starting cards and expect to come out a winner. Good Luck HONEST_KEN | ||
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| Re: New player needs advice, Formless, 2. Sep 2003 17:51 | ||
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| Suggestion: play two tables at the same time online. You don't have to wait as long to get a playable hand. You can still play tight and play more than one hand an hour. Being disciplined is right at the top of the list of Holdem essentials, so I'm pretty sure you are going to do OK. | ||
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| Re: New player needs advice, Mike G, 2. Sep 2003 22:03 | ||
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| Hi! I'm a beginner as well and my only advice is to keep playing the game right and practice. I would also suggest playing in a live cardroom at the lowest limits you can find. Practice...Practice...Practice -Mike (The Impatient Beginner) | ||
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| Re: New player needs advice, 4 POKER, 2. Sep 2003 22:28 | ||
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| Hey Dayne, There's nothing wrong with your style of play which is a "tight style". I know you're just a beginner but if you can be selectively aggresive as well as playing tight, you'll run circles around those loosey-goosey's who play every hand. Sure they'll win more pots than you because they'll be willing to play more hands.......but in the long run if they kept playing really bad cards, they'll more than likely end up being losers in poker, and they are the type of players that we make our money from!! So just be thankful that they're in your game! If you can play strong hands pre-flop and understand what other types of holdings also play well in the right position, and you are able (which will take some time) to outplay some of your opponents (which will come from having a good read over them; in time)........and put your money in when you're getting the best of it and fold off when you're not.......as long as you play better than your opponents do, and you can become a disciplined player and not worry about all the pots that so-and-so just dragged in because he was willing to play crappy cards......you'll be just fine. Remember Dayne.......the stronger your starting hand is, and the better you play your hands on the flop, will make it easier for you to continue; and players who have chosen to play weaker starting hands than you will be getting the short end of the stick many more times than you will! Keep playing good cards, have a little bit more patience, and in time you'll gain some experience that could also help you to understand the game (and all of its factors/nuances even more. Good luck to you. 4P- | ||
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| Playing in loose games, URF, 3. Sep 2003 00:54 | ||
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| I'm no great player, but I do play against loose players and have a few guidelines that works for me. OK, first of all, when you play against really loose opponents, you rarely fold on the river, unless you were on a draw that didn't hit. The decision to play or not to play the hand is made on the flop (and of course before the flop, but that's just a prelude - the real start of the hand is on the flop). You leave most of your hands on the flop, get convinced to leave a few of your hands on the turn (if things looks to have turned sour), and very rarely leave a made hand on the river. What you do, instead of folding, is checking and calling. Especially if you are not that advanced and experienced yet, checking and calling is often a great alternative in a loose and (fairly) aggressive game when you're not certain where you're at. The important thing is that the VAST majority of your folds should come early in the hand, most likely on the flop, and on the river you don't fold if you have any kind of reasonable chance to win. What's reasonable you have to learn by observing. Things may be different if someone who always plays straightforward shows aggression, but at least on the Internet, most loose players aren't straightforward like that. And you've got to KNOW that they are straightforward like that to take advantage of it. Folding the best hand on the river is a terrible thing. Your own aggression should mostly be on the flop, and on the turn. The flop can be a great place to show that you have a good hand, especially when it's not really that good, so that you might know more where you're at if someone else shows aggression. On the turn you need to protect your hand from draws, or get good value on your good hands. But on the river.... On the river aggression isn't that important in a loose game, I believe. If the board is safe and you think that you will get called by a worse hand, go ahead and bet, but often, and especially when there are a lot of opponents, or a dangerous board, people either have drawn out on you and raises, and you mostly have to call, or they fold. Hence, the value of betting on the river in a loose game often isn't that good. I often check and call. If they are a little aggressive, they might bet a hand they would have folded, or they don't get the opportunity to raise or check-raise you. Anyway, you should be MUCH less aggressive on the river than on the flop and turn, unless you have a really good hand. Another thing: If they are really aggressive, raising and re-raising each other a lot of the time, or maybe all of the time, you need to be even tighter. Pocket pairs are great in these games though, if you hit your set on the flop. And suited aces can be great, if you get in for one bet preflop and lots of people stay in postflop. One important thing is to not loosen up to preflop raises just because they are frequent and hence made with crappy cards. Remember: these are loose games and you won't be able to isolate the raiser or anything - you'll have to beat a bunch of them. Preflop raises lessens or destroys your edge over them. So you should also not raise very much preflop yourself. Especially not if you notice that it affects your postflop play. If you just call with QQ, it's so much easier to throw it away against those seven players when the king comes on the flop and someone bets. If you raise, noone will probably fold anyway (oh, OK, maybe one of them), and then they might check and call, and it is so much easier to think "oh, maybe no one has a king...". Well - someone most likely has, and will call you down. And also they will make less of an error with their draws when you raise preflop. So raise VERY little preflop. As I said, I am no expert, so don't believe everything I say is correct. But also, when you're not that great yourself, by not getting into dangerous situations where you might not really know what you are doing, you are certain to win against really loose opponents. If you DO get into dangerous situations, situations that an expert might be able to handle, but not you, you might actually lose against the loose players, especially if it gets you on tilt. I hope you'll find your way to winning good. -URF | ||
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| Re: Playing in loose games, Brian462, 3. Sep 2003 04:34 | ||
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| > Remember: these are loose games and you > won't be able to isolate the raiser or anything - you'll have to beat a bunch of > them. Preflop raises lessens or destroys your edge over them. So you should also not > raise very much preflop yourself. Especially not if you notice that it affects your > postflop play. If you just call with QQ, it's so much easier to throw it away against > those seven players when the king comes on the flop and someone bets. If you raise, > noone will probably fold anyway (oh, OK, maybe one of them), and then they might > check and call, and it is so much easier to think "oh, maybe no one has a king...". > Well - someone most likely has, and will call you down. And also they will make less > of an error with their draws when you raise preflop. So raise VERY little preflop. > I think most of your advice is very good but I disagree here, I still think you should raise preflop. In your example with the QQ, you only have to win this rarely to justify building the pot. Pushing out even a few players has value to it and when you follow it up with another raise at the flop it will likely have more power to it, hopefully encouraging a few more to let it go. The remaining opponents are going to draw regardless of pot odds and early raising will often yield you free cards later on if a K or A does hit. It will also make the pot big enough to justify calling any of the bluffs that frequently get made in these types of games. In very loose games, anytime the flop shows a pair, trips, or just an Ace it seems to get bluffed at. These are never successful but always made and having a large pot makes your call easier to make. This fits in with your style of playing fast early on and check-calling the end when you are unsure of your standing. If you are not confident in your post-flop reads it would only make sense to get as much as you can in preflop so that it takes some of the weight off the end of the hand. Conversly, if you wanted to just call preflop you should depend on your skills more to determine if you have the best hand and then raise and reraise on the expensive streets. I'm still very new and learning but this seems to make the most sense to me. | ||
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| Re: Playing in loose games, EC, 3. Sep 2003 09:34 | ||
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| Them queens, I tell you. I will virtually always raise with QQ or JJ pre-flop only if I'm not in the blinds, unless I've only got one or two opponents. In a LL game you're just not going to fold anyone with a raise if they already have one bet in, I can't recall the last time I saw someone not call a second bet. If you can't thin the herd with QQ, you may as well keep the deception value of it, which can be substantial. Otherwise you would only be raising it for value, and I don't see much value to it. Like I said, only time this hand has real value is with few opponents, so I feel it's worth a value raise in the blinds only if one or two people have come in. Otherwise, keep the deception value, hope for a set, and get out cheap if an A or K hits the board and people start going nuts. Eli on 3. Sep 2003 04:34 Brian462 wrote: > > Remember: these are loose games and you > > won't be able to isolate the raiser or anything - you'll have to beat a bunch of > > them. Preflop raises lessens or destroys your edge over them. So you should also not > > raise very much preflop yourself. Especially not if you notice that it affects your > > postflop play. If you just call with QQ, it's so much easier to throw it away against > > > those seven players when the king comes on the flop and someone bets. If you raise, > > noone will probably fold anyway (oh, OK, maybe one of them), and then they might > > check and call, and it is so much easier to think "oh, maybe no one has a king...". > > Well - someone most likely has, and will call you down. And also they will make less > > of an error with their draws when you raise preflop. So raise VERY little preflop. > > > > I think most of your advice is very good but I disagree here, I still think you should > raise preflop. In your example with the QQ, you only have to win this rarely to justify > building the pot. Pushing out even a few players has value to it and when you follow it > up with another raise at the flop it will likely have more power to it, hopefully > encouraging a few more to let it go. The remaining opponents are going to draw regardless > of pot odds and early raising will often yield you free cards later on if a K or A does > hit. It will also make the pot big enough to justify calling any of the bluffs that > frequently get made in these types of games. In very loose games, anytime the flop shows > a pair, trips, or just an Ace it seems to get bluffed at. These are never successful but > always made and having a large pot makes your call easier to make. > > This fits in with your style of playing fast early on and check-calling the end when you > are unsure of your standing. If you are not confident in your post-flop reads it would > only make sense to get as much as you can in preflop so that it takes some of the weight > off the end of the hand. Conversly, if you wanted to just call preflop you should depend > on your skills more to determine if you have the best hand and then raise and reraise on > the expensive streets. > > I'm still very new and learning but this seems to make the most sense to me. | ||
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| Re: Playing in loose games, Snorbolus, 3. Sep 2003 10:43 | ||
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| You are joking right? QQ is the 4th best hand in hold'em! >..... If you can't thin the herd with QQ, you may as well keep the > deception value of it, which can be substantial. Otherwise you would only be raising it for > value, and I don't see much value to it........ | ||
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| Re: Playing in loose games, Schuster, 3. Sep 2003 12:21 | ||
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| I agree with Snorb. QQ isn't going to hold up nearly as often as aces, but it will hold up more than often enough to make it worth raising for value before the flop. Get the money in when you have the best hand. Even if you only win a third of the time, you're getting a lot of other people to put money into the pot. Money odds are good! Lee | ||
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| Re: Playing in loose games, URF, 3. Sep 2003 14:26 | ||
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| Hmm... I thought that QQ was the THIRD best hand in hold 'em... If you go by Sklansky's list, that is. Anyway, it's all situational, and Sklansky's list sucks big time. And that I am prepared to stand by. Until someone convinces me otherwise. ;-) JJ is the fourth best hand in the Sklansky list, and S&M recommends just calling with JJ if there are more than three opponents, or likely will be. Or do I remember incorrectly? QQ is probably always worth raising with if you're really good postflop, or if it will get rid of opponents. I just feel that I'm not that good playing QQ in a raised pot against many opponents, and I don't believe that I personally lose much on just calling, and it also keeps my stress-level down. One always must adapt ones preflop play to fit your postflop play. I used to always raise with QQ preflop, because that was what I thought one should do. But now I don't against loose opponents, because it feels better for me not to. And it took quite a while for me to trust myself enough to ignore the experts advice. And by the way, Mike Caro have stated that he believes that most good players raise too much against loose opponents. Of course, he probebly didn't mean not to raise with QQ... But it still feels best for me. That's my take on it. But I'm no expert. :-( Still manages to win though. :-) -URF | ||
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| Re: Playing in loose games, Jav, 3. Sep 2003 17:13 | ||
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| I would agree that it's not always a good idea to raise with Q,Q if you are in a position that you don't feel like it would fold anyone off their hand (ie BB). In that situation I would rather see the flop, and hope for a checkraise if overcards don't fall. Then I have a better chance of eliminating opponents. In loose games too many people will play any Ace or King, and stick with it for too long. You really have to watch out for overcards, so I play it aggressive if I think I can fold people off. Otherwise I like to slow down with it... | ||
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