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Server Time: 12/1/2008 5:17:36 PM PACIFIC |
 Laydowns, MAL, 2. Sep 2003 09:44 | ||
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| Hello All, Just wondering how everyone handles laying down what ultimately becomes the "made" hand. Either because of decent starting hand requirements or not getting the "odds" to call (pot, implied, and outs). Sometimes it frustrates me considerably and I want to go against everything I have read and "know". Not tilting but sometimes I chase anyway and get reinforced positively which I know will lead to bad habits. I try to offset the frustration by counting the bets saved when I want to play on and don't and the hand is not made. Bugs me when I hold A7o UTG fold to a raise and have the flop come AA7 or 77x. After the flop to have Axs, flop 1 of suit no board pairs and drop not having the odds to chase the turn and the river (many times I will pay a single bet to see the turn). Thanks in advance... MAL | ||
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| Re: Laydowns, Jav, 2. Sep 2003 10:11 | ||
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| I don't always handle it that well! Last night I was playing in the Aruba SuperSattelite at UB. It was down to 17 people (from 400, top 6 won a trip to aruba, and up to 14 got paid). I was in the BB with T,T. One MP player came in with a minimum raise (He was about T10,000, as was I. Average was about T15,000, and blinds were T2,000 and T1,000). The player two off the button came over the top of him for about T8,000. I thought about it for awhile and folded the hand. Which I still think is the right thing to do. Well it turns out the MP player had 6,6, and the LP player had A,Q. Flop came x,x,10 rainbow. An Ace came on the turn, and another blank on the river. So I basically could have trippled up which would have nearly guaranteed me a spot to Aruba. Groan. So the next hand I get K,9s in the little blind. Now I didn't play a hand that bad the entire tournament. But I guess I was steaming and finished the bet (in hindsight I think I should have folded or raised, and I think folding was probably better at this point). The BB checked, and the flop came Q,10,6 with two of my suit. So I had any club or any jack for what I thought would give me a win. I made a pot sized bet (which only left me with about T4000), and the big blind went all in. I thought I was beat at this point, but I figured I had 13 clean outs, and I was done next blind if I didn't win this hand. So I called, and the BB had Q,T. The last two cards were blanks and I was out of the tournament at #17. I guess my point is I don't handle making a laydown that would have won very well, lol. But every game is a learning experience. I can't believe I played for over three hours and let myself get busted out with a K,9s hand.... | ||
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| Re: Laydowns, stdioh, 2. Sep 2003 11:12 | ||
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| Easy fold. Results mean nothing. So the ten came this time. If a 2 had come would you complain about folding 22? What if you had 27 and the flop was 227? In a spot like that where I'm a medium stack and everybody's holding out for money I would never call with TT. I might raise it myself, but I certainly wouldn't call a raise with it. Gap concept at work. | ||
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| Re: Laydowns, Jav, 2. Sep 2003 11:21 | ||
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| I know I should have layed it down. I would have called the re-raise the first player in that situation, but after it was re-raised by another player I was out. I'm more disappointed in my play on the next hand! I told myself I was not going to bust out of the tournament unless I had a beat put on me, and I let the results of the previous hand break my concentration for 20 seconds and that was all it took. | ||
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| Re: Laydowns, grant pittman, 2. Sep 2003 11:19 | ||
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| MAL it is frustrating when you see what could have been but it is foolish to dwell on this. You need to accept that your decision was proper with the information you had and that's all there is to it. Make sure you make the right decision when it is time and that's the best you can do. Good luck!!!!! GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Laydowns, shorn, 2. Sep 2003 11:27 | ||
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| MAL- What you should do with your example is track the next 100 hands after you fold the A7 and see the AA7 flop and see how many OTHER flops come in that 100 that would help you. When you see that 95 of the 100 would have been a total waste of 2 bets and that 5 of the other 100 would have hit you in some way, the math becomes easier to stomach. My advice...keep folding that trash and close your eyes until the next hand if you can't handle what the flop brings. Steve | ||
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| Re: Laydowns, LJH, 2. Sep 2003 12:01 | ||
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| MAL, YOU NEED A BOOK ON POKER PSYCHOLOGY AS WELL AS POKER BOOKS ON WHAT HANDS TO PLAY. IF YOU PLAY A7 OF I WANT TO BE IN YOUR GAME.YOU NEED TO KNOW PROBABILITIES BECAUSE THAT HAND WILL COST YOU LOTS OF MOOLAH. LJH | ||
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| Re: Laydowns, MAL, 2. Sep 2003 13:25 | ||
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| LJH. Could you please recommend some poker psychology books you have found helpful? I would appreciate it. I appreciate you're feedback and look forward to any recommendations. I have considered and will now definitely begin a "poker journal" to track these kinds of things (as mentioned elsewhere in this thread) and hopefully "ease my laydown pain". Thanks, MAL | ||
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| Re: Laydowns, davideasg, 2. Sep 2003 13:35 | ||
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| not 10 minutes ago I laid down 77 after a preflop raise. The flop came up 7KQ rainbow. If I had played my hound out, it would have been very very costly as the pre-flop raiser had KK. Obviously 77 vs. KQ on the board is a different than your TT etc., but the point is made. You win some, you lose some. Play your program. | ||
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| Re: Laydowns, MAL, 2. Sep 2003 13:48 | ||
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| Thanks all, great feedback. Reinforces what I initially learned prior to play. 1) Play good starting hands, 2) Make the "right" decision at the time based on all of the information available, 3) Never look back. 4) Track sessions and situations for long term results -> saved me a lot not chasing the flushes. It 's important to always ask whether it could've been played better, but this is real basic. Basics first, fancy at higher limits. Part of the challenge, I think, is being (temporarily I hope) trapped playing no-foldem (micro limits on-line and 2/4 - 3/6 b&m). Very frustrating game. Read Lee Jones, but facing 10-2o and losing with big pocket over pairs that haven't improved, over and over, shakes me up. I live in vegas and look forward to playing some of the "real" poker I have read about when my bankroll (and wife ;-) allows. (Trying to get her interested, haven't succeeded yet.) Thanks again, MAL | ||
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| Re: Laydowns, davideasg, 2. Sep 2003 14:11 | ||
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| It will continue to happen over and over again. I believe the book you need to read on the subject is "Zen and the Art of Poker". | ||
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| Re: Laydowns, Urban Chaos, 3. Sep 2003 02:50 | ||
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| MAL, I've got a saying that I made up years ago (though perhaps it isn't as original as I think): "I'd rather fold it and see it land than keep it and see it not." A good pre-flop drop that hits is only woulda, coulda, shoulda...but really, it's not so much the "sholda." You might have won that pot, but in the long run that philosophy will cost you money. -Urban "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people; and if you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you. " | ||
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| Re: Laydowns, chasepoker, 3. Sep 2003 04:24 | ||
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| I always say to myself that poker is a game of decisions not results, you can only make correct decisions ( like folding that A7 UTG ) you cannot influence results. The reason you fold that A7 is because the odds do not warrant playing it here, poker is all about odds if something is a 10-1 shot then obviously it is going to happen once and not happen ten times. DECISONS NOT RESULTS !!!! Chasepoker | ||
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