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Server Time: 12/1/2008 6:29:10 PM PACIFIC |
 Online Bluffing Question, SeanCandy, 1. Sep 2003 11:30 | ||
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| I've been playing in online tourneys for about 3 months now. It seems I can rarely pull a bluff off. I may be overestimating, but it seems like I loose about 8/10 bluffs I attempt. Not a winning strategy. Even when the board is scary (like a A high 3 flush on board) and I make a stab at the pot seems like I always get called and the winner wins with like bottom 2 pair, or a middle pair, or they got a miracle river card. I am generally a tight player that can turn on the aggression when I feel I have the best of it. So I would think people would see that. Any thoughts and ideas on online bluffing in tournaments would be greatly appreciated. I have studied poker theory on and off for about 2.5 years...It was actually part of my job training. Thanks, SC | ||
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| Re: Online Bluffing Question, Giocatore, 1. Sep 2003 12:01 | ||
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| SC, I agree 100% with you. Approaching 3 full years of online play at various sites, the one constant that I have noticed is that it is nearly impossible to bluff because people do not fold. Plain and simple. All it takes is a mere click of the mouse to call that extra bet as opposed to staring down your opponent looking for the slightest piece of information. Just yesterday, I flopped a straight flush draw in the big blind with no raises pre-flop, proceeded to build a pot hoping to hit something, ultimately lost my discipline for a moment and proceeded to bluff only to be called with queen high. I held 8h-9h, my opponent held 10c-Qs and the board read 5h-7h-2c-Js-4d. And the funny part is that this happened in a 10/20 game. I pushed my hand too far and paid the price, but how could my opponent possibly call me, the aggressor, down with queen high? Oddly, I encounter such play routinely, and this is just one of the reasons why I rarely try to bluff anymore because it simply isn't worth it . . . online. Giocatore | ||
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| Re: Online Bluffing Question, PokerPro, 1. Sep 2003 12:10 | ||
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| My experience with bluffing online is the same. Only I'm surprised that it doesn't work at the $10-20 level. I'm really starting to think that the bluff is of no use online. | ||
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| Re: Online Bluffing Question, Roy Cooke, 1. Sep 2003 12:13 | ||
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| The game online tend to be looser than most live games. Therefor bluffs do not have the value they do in tight games......As games get looser you need to tighten up on your bluffs....I am not saying you should never attempt bluffs in loose games, but the situation has to be right! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 1. Sep 2003 11:30 SeanCandy wrote: > I've been playing in online tourneys for about 3 months now. It seems I can > rarely pull a bluff off. I may be overestimating, but it seems like I loose > about 8/10 bluffs I attempt. Not a winning strategy. > > Even when the board is scary (like a A high 3 flush on board) and I make a stab > at the pot seems like I always get called and the winner wins with like bottom 2 > pair, or a middle pair, or they got a miracle river card. I am generally a > tight player that can turn on the aggression when I feel I have the best of it. > So I would think people would see that. > > Any thoughts and ideas on online bluffing in tournaments would be greatly > appreciated. > > I have studied poker theory on and off for about 2.5 years...It was actually > part of my job training. > > Thanks, > SC | ||
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| Re: Online Bluffing Question, 4 POKER, 1. Sep 2003 14:42 | ||
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| In order for your bluffs to be successful, you have to be up against players who A) have some sort of a clue about the game and are able to release their hand, B) are not reading you better than you think they are and will pay you off with Ace high, etc..(If I have a good read over my opponent, I will pay him off with just an Ace if I think he's trying to bluff bet with less than that). When you go up against reasonable opponents and/or players that play on the tighter side.......bluffs will work easier. But because there are so many inexperienced and downright clueless players who play on-line poker.........too many times you will see them make a call that literally has you scratching your head!.....how the hell can they call me with THAT?.......don't they have any clue at all?........well the answer alot of the times is........NO! I do make bluffs when playing on-line and sometimes they do work, but more often than not, they don't. My bluff attempts work much better when I play in "live" games, so I tend to bluff alot less on-line. Semi-bluff bets and raises I will still attempt, but an outright bluff?.....seldom. Like anything else though, it depends on the situation at hand and who's in the pot with you and how well (if at all) do you know their tendencies and capabilities. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Online Bluffing Question, Kid, 1. Sep 2003 15:21 | ||
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| Hey guys, One thing I don't think I've heard anybody mention is pot odds. We always talk about odds in relation to our draws, but how about the likelyhood of our bluff working versus money in the pot. Now granted it's very hard to steal the large pots with bluffs, but you're still getting a decent price on your bluffs in small shorthanded pots. Like during a 3 handed, unraised flop, you only have to succeed one in three times to show a profit. I think this makes it correct to take a lot of shots with weak hands or with rags against non-calling stations. KID | ||
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| Re: Online Bluffing Question, Lee Vaughn, 1. Sep 2003 17:40 | ||
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| Bluffing online is almost a waste of time at the low limits and in the early stages of a tourney. One important thing to remember is that your bluffs will be more successful vs someone who is actually paying attention to your play. Your overall play of the hand should also be consistent with the bluff, i.e. they should have a reason to believe you actually have the hand you represent in order for your bluff to be successful. Lee | ||
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| Re: Online Bluffing Question, PairTheBoard, 1. Sep 2003 17:59 | ||
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| I'm playing mostly 5-10 online these days. There are a LOT of pots that do not get called all the way to the river. I've seen ultra agressive players who never miss a chance to bet - everybody knows they're stealing - who will nevertheless still succeed in stealing pot after pot when everybody misses. If they get lucky and actually hit a few hands themselves they can really pile the chips up for a while. They can also lose a bundle in a hurry when their opponents start catching a little. The problem such players have is they feel they can't allow their opponents to play back at them so continue on with bluffs when they should give them up. All this tells me that opportunities for bluffs do exist online. However they are not easy to spot. They are best done when your opponents show a lot of weakness and when you have established your willingness to check for free cards some of the time. It helps if you have bet out a couple of good hands and been called down previously in the session. This is one drawback to habitually check raising with your big hands. You can't expect your oponents to buy your bluffs when you always check your good hands. And the check raise bluff goes against the principle of bluffing against weakness. I usually like to have at least enough of a hand to beat someone who is just calling the bluff - and/or have outs in case I'm called. imo, if you can at least break even on your bluffs then they are beneficial to your overall game. You will get more action on your winning hands. | ||
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| Re: Online Bluffing Question, SeanCandy, 2. Sep 2003 06:07 | ||
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| Thanks for all your ideas on this subject. You've all been very helpful. SC | ||
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| Re: Online Bluffing Question, stdioh, 2. Sep 2003 11:38 | ||
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| If you are losing 8/10 bluffs then you're probably doing well with them. Lets say that you bluff correctly, at big pots when scare cards come and such. Lets say that the average pot you bluff at contains 10 BB. You spend 8 BB bluffing and fail. Then you get rewarded for 20 BB when they two bluffs succeed. That's a profit of 12 BB! Even if the average pot you're bluffing at has 5 BB in it, you're still getting 2 BB of profit. Either your bluffs are working out better than you had thought or you're not winning as many of them as you think. Generally speaking if you become known as a frequent bluffer you'll get called down all the time, so I would suggest that when in doubt *don't* bluff. Make it something that you only get caught in once in a while so that you can do it more successfully. There are few things sweeter than taking down a big pot with a 6-high busted flush draw. | ||
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| Re: Online Bluffing Question, SeanCandy, 2. Sep 2003 12:45 | ||
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| stdioh... Thanks...Perhaps I need to re-evaluate my bluffing strategies...I almost never bluff online...If anything I give too much credit to the players I am up against...I am always shocked when I fold a low flush draw to a pot sized raise ( figuring I don't have odds to call and don't want to get busted out of the tourney) and there are 2 or more callers ahead of me, and on the showdown, neither player has anything better than top pair ace kicker...This is particularly strange to me when there the flop comes suited...I suppose its that they cant look beyond their own hands. Thanks again, SC | ||
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| Re: Online Bluffing Question, stdioh, 3. Sep 2003 16:06 | ||
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| You should never be calling a pot sized bet with a low flush draw. You don't have odds and it doesn't matter how bad your opponent's hand is - it beats you if you don't improve. | ||
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