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Server Time: 11/20/2008 6:53:56 AM PACIFIC |
 folded around to 44, Angel, 1. Sep 2003 01:36 | ||
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| Playing 20/40 yesterday; the games 9-handed - lot of new faces. Folded around to me in the cut-off position and I find 44. The button is telegraphing a muck - and has shown me in the 30 minutes that I've been there that I can believe him. Brier and Ciaffone's book 'Middle Limit Holdem Poker' (Brier posts here and thus gets top billing:)) on pg 47 says that you should open with a raise with pocket 5's or better in this spot. Can the correct cutoff be determined mathematically? The pro's and cons for raising with 44 vs 55 seem about the same. I'm looking at a small edge against two overpair or I'm a big dog. I raised; primarily because I knew the button was going to muck anyway - but honestly, I'm raising because I'm told it's correct - not because I understand it - and I think that's a lousy reason to do anything. Anyone want to help explain this to me? Thanks in advance for any insight. | ||
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| Re: folded around to 44, Mark, 1. Sep 2003 02:00 | ||
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| I think the raise is correct for a few reasons 1. If you play the way they suggest, you will be tight aggressive. If you have such an image, your raise will be taken seriously, and may get the SB or maybe even the BB to fold. 2. You have position on the only other possible opponents. You get to see what they do first, and many times can take down the pot on the flop without any improvement. 3. Since no one else is in the pot, it would be incorrect for your opponents to call with drawing hands due to pot odds. Thus you gain by Sklansky's Theory of Poker. 4. If you get called you can still make a big hand that is well hidden. 5. If you have to show down your hand, it can be good advertising. While your cards aren't great, your position and aggression can more than make up for your cards. Also, you wouldn't make this play if one of the blinds was overly aggressive or a calling station. Mark > Brier and Ciaffone's book 'Middle Limit Holdem Poker' (Brier posts here and > thus gets top billing:)) on pg 47 says that you should open with a raise with > pocket 5's or better in this spot. Can the correct cutoff be determined > mathematically? The pro's and cons for raising with 44 vs 55 seem about the > same. I'm looking at a small edge against two overpair or I'm a big dog. I > raised; primarily because I knew the button was going to muck anyway - but > honestly, I'm raising because I'm told it's correct - not because I understand > it - and I think that's a lousy reason to do anything. Anyone want to help > explain this to me? > > Thanks in advance for any insight. | ||
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| Re: folded around to 44, Formless, 1. Sep 2003 07:00 | ||
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| I think Abdul advocates a slightly more aggressive opening strategy. He has you opening with as little as 22-A3-K7-J9 and even 98 on the button, which you effectively are. In a raked game I think this is probably too aggressive, and maybe this accounts for disparity vs. Brier/Ciaffone? As for how you can determine this mathematically, I can tell you that Abdul's starting hand requirements are the product of many hours of simulations in Wilson TTHE, among other inputs. I've run my own simulations and inevitably my results tend to confirm his advice. When he tells you that 55 is the minimum opener in a spot, he is not just picking a number that feels right, but you do have to draw the line somewhere and you can be pretty sure 44 is not playable, all things being equal of course. When I am in a really tight high-limit game I can 'feel' if my starting openers are right or not. If I open even a notch or two below what I should in a game with very good players I get thumped, if I stay within my range I'm in good shape. It seems in tight games you really pay for these marginal mistakes and they are obvious. 22 vs a random hand is 50.3% while 55 vs. a random hand is about 60.4%, so you can see that there is significant difference in value even though they are only 3 apart in value. True the blind isn't defending with 24o but you are hoping to middle the BB when he calls with A2, A3, K4 and you have 55. | ||
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| Re: folded around to 44, 4 POKER, 1. Sep 2003 11:30 | ||
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| Okay, so you're pretty sure that the button is folding pre-flop, which would now leave you in last position with everyone folded except for the blinds........and if you're going to play 4-4, IMO you'll be better off raising with the hand coming in, unless the SB and/or the BB are very aggresive players or who are complete calling stations. If they're your average type player, or if they're pretty tight, a raise in that spot could work much easier. If they do call you, you still have position and you also have a well hidden hand if you happen to flop a set or an open-ender. If you raise and get called......If you get bet into on the flop, I think you'd still know how to handle 4-4 if the flop was an unfavorable one for you. If you just limp in with it, you'll never know (unless you flop a set or a board that favors you) if one of the blinds leads at the flop, if they're betting on top pair, a draw, or a steal. By raising it pre-flop, you allow yourself to fold off the blinds, and you will have a much better shot at taking the pot right there as opposed to limping in and letting one of them flop something that has you beat, but if you raised it coming in, maybe their holdings would have been a hand that they never would have put in an extra bet in with anyway. So unless they're really loose/aggresive, I would make the raise. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: folded around to 44, Roy Cooke, 1. Sep 2003 13:18 | ||
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| Hi Angel What I would do in this spot would depend upon the texture of the blinds.....If they were both tight players who give up on their blinds early I would raise......If they were aggressive players who were likely to 3-bet me I would fold the hand......If they were bad players likely to call, but I could read them and outplay them easily I would raise........Of course, situations are not always that easily defined and most of your judgements would have some gray area.......But those concepts are what I would apply to the hand......I do NOT agree with the defining of hands in the manner you described......Where if I have this hand, I do this play without defining the texture of the situation that is current. Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 1. Sep 2003 01:36 Angel wrote: > Playing 20/40 yesterday; the games 9-handed - lot of new faces. Folded around > to me in the cut-off position and I find 44. The button is telegraphing a muck > - and has shown me in the 30 minutes that I've been there that I can believe > him. > > Brier and Ciaffone's book 'Middle Limit Holdem Poker' (Brier posts here and > thus gets top billing:)) on pg 47 says that you should open with a raise with > pocket 5's or better in this spot. Can the correct cutoff be determined > mathematically? The pro's and cons for raising with 44 vs 55 seem about the > same. I'm looking at a small edge against two overpair or I'm a big dog. I > raised; primarily because I knew the button was going to muck anyway - but > honestly, I'm raising because I'm told it's correct - not because I understand > it - and I think that's a lousy reason to do anything. Anyone want to help > explain this to me? > > Thanks in advance for any insight. | ||
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| Re: folded around to 44, epper, 2. Sep 2003 07:08 | ||
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| Interesting. Sklansky and Malmuth say that a small pair should not be played in middle position if you are first in because the odds are not there. They say that you need 5-1 odds for it to be correct to play a small pair. However, your play sounds more like a semibluff, esp given the tell of the button. If the small or big blind play, your are probably going to get a check on the flop, which allows you to get a free card or to semi bluff again depending on the flop. If you flop a set, you are home free. Bottom line--don't know if you made the right play or not. Not an expert here either, but if you are going to play that type of pair in that position, I think that raising is the only option -- a call is useless. Hope this helps. | ||
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| Re: folded around to 44, epper, 2. Sep 2003 07:08 | ||
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| Interesting. Sklansky and Malmuth say that a small pair should not be played in middle position if you are first in because the odds are not there. They say that you need 5-1 odds for it to be correct to play a small pair. However, your play sounds more like a semibluff, esp given the tell of the button. If the small or big blind play, your are probably going to get a check on the flop, which allows you to get a free card or to semi bluff again depending on the flop. If you flop a set, you are home free. Bottom line--don't know if you made the right play or not. Not an expert here either, but if you are going to play that type of pair in that position, I think that raising is the only option -- a call is useless. Hope this helps. | ||
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| Re: folded around to 44, shorn, 2. Sep 2003 07:45 | ||
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| I think it is a definite raise or fold situation. With 1/2 hour at the table, you have likely seen one or maybe two rounds of your blind opponents, so you should be able to tell if they are loose or tight. Regardless, calling would be a dumb play...you might as well try to fold off at least 1 of the blinds and hope for an uncoordinated flop at worst which you can win with a flop bet. I would have raised the hand and then depending on the outcome of that raise adjusted my playing against these players accordingly the next time around. | ||
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| Re: folded around to 44, Phish, 2. Sep 2003 10:35 | ||
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| Seems funny to me how there is so much discussion on a topic that doesn't make a whole lot of difference. My order of preference here is raise, fold, and call. But this is one situation where the value of the three actions appear to be very close. If the blinds are tight, either before the flop or after, you should raise to steal it right there or to steal it on the flop if big cards flop. If the blinds are tough and tricky, folding may be better. If the blinds are loose and aggressive, calling may be preferable just to can get the action if you flop a set. But I think you can improve your game so much more if you focus on after-the flop play rather than on distinguishing between such close-call pre-flop options. | ||
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| Re: folded around to 44, stdioh, 2. Sep 2003 12:06 | ||
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| Small pairs play well against a large field (trying to flop a set) or heads up (less than 50% chance your opponent will make a pair with his overcards). The problem with playing them heads up is that you don't know where you are in the hand and your opponent gets implied odds off of you that you don't get off him. Needless to say though that there is no reason to limp and play 3 or 4 handed with a small pair, so the decision becomes one of either raising and hoping to steal, get heads up, or position yourself to steal on the flop, or mucking. I think that 22, 33, and 44 are a bit crapulent to try that with just because the chance of winning with 22 is simply less than of winning with 55. The actual cutoff point will depend on the textures of the players yet to act and your own table image. I think 66 or 77 would be more realistic for a looser game where you are more likely to be called and 22 would be ok in a really tight game where you are likely to steal. | ||
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