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Server Time: 12/1/2008 5:30:55 PM PACIFIC |
 Identifying your mistakes, SicSemper, 1. Sep 2003 00:30 | ||
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| I've been playing low limit for about a month now, and I'm still getting a feel for my game, but I had this hand a couple of days ago that I can't get out of my head. I can't decide if I just took a bad beat, or if I made a mistake along the way. I'm in the big blind in a 1/2 game sitting on KhTh and most of the board limps in. I check and the flop comes 8sQhJh. UTG checks and UTG+1 bets. Along the way it gets raised up, 2 bets to go and I call on my draw. The turn comes 9s, and it gets checked around to middle position. Middle position bets, and someone raises again along the way . Button calls, I smooth call, not wanting to advertise the fact that I just hit my straight, UTG+1 calls, and no one reraises. The river pairs the Q. The hand I'm really nervous about is if someone was playing QJ, working their two pair and now going full. No one was playing that aggresively off the flop, and I know I have anyone holding just a 10 beat, but I'm still leery of the boat, so I check. UTG+1 bets, middle position raiser from the turn folds, button folds and I raise. UTG+1 reraises me and I call. I was hoping he'd turn over trip Qs, but he drops pocket Qs on me, and his quads gobble up my K-high straight. What I can't figure out is if I misplayed the turn by not making it 3 bets to go. I doubt a 3-bet would have scared off (what was then) trip Qs in a LL game, but then again, I'm not sure. It's part of a larger problem I'm having right now, which is seperating my screwups from just plain' old bad beats. Any advice would be appreciated! | ||
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| Re: Identifying your mistakes, Angel, 1. Sep 2003 01:52 | ||
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| " I've been playing low limit for about a month now, and I'm still getting a feel for my game, but I had this hand a couple of days ago that I can't get out of my head. I can't decide if I just took a bad beat, or if I made a mistake along the way. I'm in the big blind in a 1/2 game sitting on KhTh and most of the board limps in. I check and the flop comes 8sQhJh. UTG checks and UTG+1 bets. Along the way it gets raised up, 2 bets to go and I call on my draw." You say that most of the table limped in - seeing as you flopped such a monster draw - I'd lead out if the majority of the table was loose enough to call two bets cold if UTG or UTG+1 raised, if the majority of the field would throw away faced with two bets, I'd probably check-raise. This is based on the assumption that your game has alot of action in it - and it seems like it did. I want as much money as possible in on the flop for the reason that you are 0.7:1 to make your hand and are getting 3:1 on your money for every bet you can get into the pot (plus dead money - assuming 4 players see the turn which it sounds like they did). "The turn comes 9s, and it gets checked around to middle position. Middle position bets, and someone raises again along the way . Button calls, I smooth call, not wanting to advertise the fact that I just hit my straight, UTG+1 calls, and no one reraises." I raise here. You have the best hand, advertise away - it doesn't look like you're going to get anyone out anyway but you should make them pay to draw out. "The river pairs the Q. The hand I'm really nervous about is if someone was playing QJ, working their two pair and now going full. No one was playing that aggresively off the flop, and I know I have anyone holding just a 10 beat, but I'm still leery of the boat, so I check. UTG+1 bets, middle position raiser from the turn folds, button folds and I raise. UTG+1 reraises me and I call." Raising here, now that you can be beat is a mistake, imo. "It's part of a larger problem I'm having right now, which is seperating my screwups from just plain' old bad beats. Any advice would be appreciated!" A bad beat is a beat one suffers, particularly from an opponent who had incorrect pot odds to be drawing. The three Q's was getting the right price (and you failed to whittle that price down with a raise on the turn) to get there and did. Doesn't qualify as a bad beat so much as a heartache. Keep asking questions - you can't improve without doing so. | ||
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| Re: Identifying your mistakes, Lee Vaughn, 1. Sep 2003 08:12 | ||
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| I have read several times advise to the effect of 'never draw to a straight with a flush draw on the board', including in Lee Jones Winning Low Limit Hold-em. Now obviously never is a strong word, but if you are going to draw to a straight vs the flush you have even better pot odds than your draw dictates to offset the fact that you might make your hand and get beaten by the flush. (you actually have 6 outs for your open ended instead of 8 since two of the cards that make your straight also make the flush.) Your post isn't very clear on how many people actually saw the flop, but to cold call the raise on the flop you would need there to be about $16 in the pot for the right odds. My only tips would be to make sure you had the rights odds on the flop, and then to bet out and play aggresively once you made your hand. At $1/2 you will still get action, and many players will not even spare a thought to what you might be holding. It's good that you are going over your plays after the fact, this will definately help you improve your play. Remember though, several people can be playing their hand correctly in any given pot so you can't sweat it if they make their hand sometimes. Once you know you played it right you have to move on to the next one. Good luck, Lee | ||
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| Re: Identifying your mistakes, Schuster, 1. Sep 2003 08:40 | ||
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| When you flop a straight flush draw, you're better than even money to make at least one of them by the river. Get as many people as you can to put in as many bets as possible. Pound that pot! Now when you hit the nuts, you should keep pounding. Low limit players will pay you off, and anyone else with a 10 might reraise. Let them, they're drawing to 3 outs for a split. If you have the nut straight, don't slowplay it, even from the flop. Get the money in, there are plenty of people who will pay you trying to draw out, without realizing they are drawing very thin. Lee | ||
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| Re: Identifying your mistakes, SicSemper, 1. Sep 2003 10:23 | ||
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| Thanks guys. One thing Lee mentioned was making sure you have the right pot odds for betting out. I have a vague understanding of how pot odds work, but I'd like to learn the nitty gritty of how to figure it on the fly. Would Thoery of Poker be the right book to turn to for that? Reviews I've read have said it's a pretty advanced book. Should I start with something more basic, like Sklansky's first hold 'em book, or should I go right to the nuts and bolts theory? | ||
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| Re: Identifying your mistakes, Angel, 1. Sep 2003 10:32 | ||
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| Theory of Poker is a must have must read if you want to improve your game. The concepts are advanced - not the math, you'll make it through fine. | ||
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| mistake in my post and pot odds, Lee Vaughn, 1. Sep 2003 12:48 | ||
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| Hey Sic, I didn't catch the fact that you also had the straight flush draw, that pretty important lol. With that in mind, you definately would have had the odds to call on the flop, and a raise should be strongly considered with such a strong draw. Your not going to make your hand everytime, but when you do you want to get the most money in that pot that you can. As far as pot odds go, it is the odds the pot is giving you to call a bet. If there is $50 in the pot and it costs you $10 to call then your getting 5-1 odds to call. Basically, if the odds of making your hand are better than 5-1 you would call, if they are not you would fold. (I am assuming you know how to figure the odds of making your hand, if not let me know and I will give you the basics.) The Theory of Poker is an excellent book, that contains a very good section on odds as well as a ton of other great concepts that a serious player should understand. For beginning and low limit players though, I think your best starting book would be Winning Low Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones. It will explain all the basic concepts you should know, and how they directly apply to the typical low limit game. Definately read the Theory of Poker, but I wouldn't recommend that as your first book. Lee | ||
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| Re: mistake in my post and pot odds, Phish, 2. Sep 2003 10:18 | ||
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| I think you made two mistakes: 1. You should have reraised the turn. The pot is now big enough that you want to thin the field, eliminate anyone with two pair (or make them pay extra for the draw), likewise anyone with a 10 hoping to hit a queen to win half the pot, or any flush draws. You would not have eliminated the trip Q's in this situation, but in general a reraise here is essential. 2. Reraising the river is a mistake. Given that board, and a bet and raise to you, all you have is a crying-call at best. And if you had reraised the turn (letting them know you have a straight), and it is still bet and raise to you on the river, you can even save two bets and fold the river (unless you're against maniacs or really smart tricky players) | ||
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