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Server Time: 2/13/2012 8:06:35 PM PACIFIC |
 Raising aggressively on a draw, mkpoker, 30. Aug 2003 19:02 | ||
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| I'd like some comments on this hand I lost recently at UB (...note to self: why does every post I write seem to start, "this is from a hand I lost at UB?" :) The principle I'd like to discuss is whether/when to raise aggressively when on a draw. On this hand, I never believed I had the best hand, but if I hit my flush draw, I figured to hold the nuts. With 4 steady callers, I played very aggressively, raising at almost every opportunity. Was this the right play? (Even in hindsight, I think it was). Adding to the complication on this hand was the fact that the player immediately on my left (the button) , who was raising as aggressively as I was, was himself shortstacked and appeared likely to go all-in before the river. This was 3/6 limit HE. Table was solid to slightly loose. I was one off the button I'm dealt AKh. Two limpers and a raiser to me. I call only. Button (with $25 to his name) reraises. Three callers, including me. Flop comes 2s 5h 4h, giving me the nut flush draw. Two checks to me. Normally I'd check, but I figured the button was a certain caller (I put him on a high pair b/c of his pre-flop 3-bet). And the other two players were the loosest most passive at the table, so I figured at least one would call--giving me good odds to draw. So I bet out. Button raised. To my surprise, both MP players called. I figured, if they called one raise, maybe they'd call a reraise, giving me 4:1 on the draw. So I reraised. Button caps. Everybody calls! At this point, I've put the button on AA, though I can't figure out what the other MP callers have. Maybe a solid pair, trips, or maybe a lower flush, straight flush, or straight draw? Maybe they've made the straight already with A3? Regardless, my flush is almost certain to beat them if it comes (with the exception of a straight flush, of course). Turn comes 6c. Two MP checks to me. I bet. Button calls, pushing him all-in. Both MP players call (there's now a tiny side pot). We take the river 4-handed. River is 4c [Board now 2s5h4h6c4c] pairing the board, creating FH potential, obvious straight opportunities, and busting my once-promising flush draw. Two checks to me. With my big pile of nothing, I check also. Sure enough, button (all-in) turns over AA. Somewhat surprisingly to me, this is good enough to win the main pot. Even more surprising, I win the tiny side pot with A-high. I still have no idea what the MP players were betting on, as they didn't show hands. After that long description, do you think my aggressive bets on the flop and turn were correct plays or should I have slowed down b/c my hand was still un-made and I was confident I still held the 2nd best. Even in retrospect, I think my aggressive raising and re-reraising with a draw was right--but only because I had so many reliable callers. All constructive comments appreciated...trying to improve...lemme have it. | ||
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| Re: Raising aggressively on a draw, BryanW, 30. Aug 2003 19:47 | ||
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| MK, On a sort of side note that may help you with reading players in the future. On UB you can see what the two MP players had by looking at the hand history. It's a little link on the bottom right hand corner of your table. Any player that goes all the way to the end will show up in the hand history. I love it because it allows me to learn the tendencies of my opponents in a hurry. Usually, the first thing I do is go back through the hand histories before I sat down to see what they have been doing. You may know this, but your post indicated that you didn't. In reference to your play in the hand I can only offer my humble opinion. Nut draws give me a lot of trouble, too because you want the pot to be huge if you hit it, but you don't want to donate all your cash if you miss. On of the things you could have done was raise pre-flop here. You would be taking the initiative and be more likely to scare off the other drawers had you missed (which you did). I think that if you were going to bet aggressively that showing the initiative early would have helped. All that said, I generally don't raise AKs because it's still a drawing hand my style is not that aggressive with drawing hands. Once the player to your left started raising, though, I would have backed off the betting. You pegged him for high pair and you knew that he would keep betting or raising the whole way. I say, if you're on a draw and you know another player will keep betting for you, let him. He will pump up the pot for you and, if you hit your draw, the pot will be big enough and he will likely pay you off on the river. There's no need to double your losses if you miss. If you hit on the turn or river, check raise. -Bryan | ||
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| Re: Raising aggressively on a draw, mkpoker, 30. Aug 2003 23:28 | ||
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| Great tip Bryan, thanks. I didn't know you could see all called hands at UB. FYI, Limper #1 had Qh 8h for a lower flush draw and Limper #2 held AsTs. I'd have guessed one of them held 6h7h for an open-end straight-flush draw, but I was wrong. I can't imagine why limper #2 stayed in this kind oof agressive pot with only AT and no draws, but alas. | ||
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| Re: Raising aggressively on a draw, Formless, 30. Aug 2003 22:47 | ||
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| > The principle I'd like to discuss is whether/when to raise >aggressively when on a draw. On this hand, I never believed I had >the best hand, but if I hit my flush draw, I figured to hold the nuts. >With 4 steady callers, I played very aggressively, raising at almost >every opportunity. Was this the right play? Overall I like the way you played it. When you do make your hand you're going to get paid off and win a big pot. > Adding to the complication on this hand was the fact that the player > immediately on my left (the button) , who was raising as aggressively as I was, > was himself shortstacked and appeared likely to go all-in before the river. Smart observation and as it turns out it's crucial info. > This was 3/6 limit HE. Table was solid to slightly loose. I was one off the button > I'm dealt AKh. Two limpers and a raiser to me. I call only. I like the idea of a call here because I like volume with AKs, but I'd still raise because the limpers will almost always call and if they don't hey free money. > Button (with $25 to his name) reraises. Three callers, including me. I'd make it 4 bets here. The three bet indicates a big pair but with the limpers in there you're getting good return on your bet I think. > Flop comes 2s 5h 4h, giving me the nut flush draw. Two checks to >me. Normally I'd check, but I figured the button was a certain caller (I >put him on a high pair b/c of his pre-flop 3-bet). And the other two >players were the loosest most passive at the table, so I figured at >least one would call--giving me good odds to draw. If you check to the raiser you know he's going to bet. The limpers aren't scared of this flop and will call with their overcards and pocket pairs. Now you can checkraise for volume; they'll call. If you bet and get raised by the raiser, you may lose the limpers and be in not as good shape heads up. If the raiser has you beat now, the limpers' money is subsidizing your draw (I think) so you want them in there. > So I bet out. Button raised. To my surprise, both MP players called. >I figured, if they called one raise, maybe they'd call a reraise, giving me 4:1 on > the draw. So I reraised. Button caps. Everybody calls! I'd jam this flop up too. Looks like Button has a pocket overpair. > At this point, I've put the button on AA, though I can't figure out what the other MP callers have. Maybe a solid pair, trips, or maybe a lower flush, straight flush, or straight draw? Maybe they've made the straight already with > A3? Regardless, my flush is almost certain to beat them if it comes (with the > exception of a straight flush, of course). > Turn comes 6c. Two MP checks to me. I bet. Button calls, pushing him all-in. Nice. The limpers may not have made a hand yet, and the button can't raise you, so you are still representing a hand. Even though you don't have the right immediate flush odds for this bet, the button is going to bet anyway so you might as well bet it yourself. Checkraising the button's bet is going too far with this hand I think; you will not make your flush over 80% of the time here, and the 6 killed your gutshot out. > Both MP players call (there's now a tiny side pot). We take the river > 4-handed. > > River is 4c [Board now 2s5h4h6c4c] pairing the board, creating FH potential, > obvious straight opportunities, and busting my once-promising flush draw. Two > checks to me. With my big pile of nothing, I check also. > > Sure enough, button (all-in) turns over AA. Somewhat surprisingly to me, this > is good enough to win the main pot. Even more surprising, I win the tiny side > pot with A-high. I still have no idea what the MP players were betting on, as > they didn't show hands. They probably had overcards, not too surprising. > After that long description, do you think my aggressive bets on the flop and > turn were correct plays or should I have slowed down b/c my hand was still > un-made and I was confident I still held the 2nd best. I thought about checking the turn but you have to call anyway if one of the limpers raises the inevitable button bet. > Even in retrospect, I think my aggressive raising and re-reraising with a draw > was right--but only because I had so many reliable callers. > > All constructive comments appreciated...trying to improve...lemme have it. | ||
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| Re: Raising aggressively on a draw, Roy Cooke, 31. Aug 2003 18:53 | ||
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| Mkpoker you have made an excellent post for consideration. Capping the betting with this type of draw (9 flush cards and possible overcards as well as the possibility of making a straight) I think is proper. If you can get the player on the button allin before the turn it's much better because you will be last to act on the turn and can take a free card if you miss. I would have check raised the button on the flop and trapped the other 2 players in the hand even though you don't have a made hand at this point. Your draw is strong and it is likely your opponent on the button will bet the flop regardless of his hand. I don't like your decision to bet the turn when the six arrives. You can take a free card and you have no hand(although somehow you were winning at this point!!!). Your opponents took a lot of heat on the flop and it is possible one of them now has a straight and is trapping you. You checked the river which was only reasonable here. Part of your consideration for pushing a flopped draw is counting your outs. In this case you had plenty of potential outs and I would have got my money in on the flop as well.Be careful when betting to consider where the aggressor is in relation to you and your opponents since you want your opponents money in when you are drawing. Often a call is correct if you fear your opponents will fold for 2 bets but will call one bet. Good luck!!!! GRANT PITTMAN(posting from Roy Cooke's house) | ||
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