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Server Time: 2/13/2012 7:08:27 PM PACIFIC |
 B&M hand- opinions please, foraces, 29. Aug 2003 17:00 | ||
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| This hand occurred today at foxwoods. $4/8 Holdem full 10 player table. Mostly passive/decent players, lots of limping and not usually more than 1 raise pre-flop two players come back at the same time and each post $4(big) blinds and dead $2 (small) blinds from middle/late positions. I am UTG+2. UTG folds, UTG+1 calls and I decide to call with Qd 3d. Player to my left calls, both posters check, next player folds, button calls, SB completes and natural BB checks. The pot contains $36 and 8 players are in when the flop comes Kc Jd Tc, giving me an open ended straight draw. SB bets $4, BB folds, player to my right calls, I raise to $8 (mainly to see just where I stand and to try to thin the field), player to my left calls, both posters fold, button folds, small blind calls, player to my right calls. At this point I am thinking I an further behind than I may have thought. The pot is now $65 or 66 after the rake, and the turn is a the 9d. I have made my straight (which could very easily be counterfeited or beaten), and a the 3rd nut flush draw. Two players check to me, and I think for a minute and decide to bet. Player to my right calls and the other two fold. Pot is now $80 and there are only two left. River is a (low) diamond giving me the flush. I bet get a call and win $96. The player to my right chose to berate me for playing these card and he mumbled to himself about it for awhile. Here are my questions: 1) Was I wrong to play Qd 3d for $4 with $22 already in the pot and 7 players to act after me? Note this is not the type of hand I normally play. Is 5.5-1 good enough odds here, assuming I would fold if the flop didn't fit my hand. 2) Was my raise on the flop too far out of line with an open ended straight draw. (The runner-runner flush draw didn't factor into my decision.) 3) What would you have done at each point | ||
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| Re: B&M hand- opinions please, Guru, 29. Aug 2003 17:54 | ||
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| I personally would not have played the Q3s in the first place, especially not in early position. It's a hand that is going to lose you money in the long run. You need a miracle flop for it to do anything for you. The only reason that I feel like I would play the hand is to vary my image a little. However, once the flop came down, I thought you played the hand very well. | ||
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| Re: B&M hand- opinions please, MozMan, 29. Aug 2003 19:45 | ||
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| Q3, suited or not, is not a hand you want to see a flop with. That's probably what his problem was; that you really shouldn't have been in the hand to start with. Now, having said that, you're in, and given the flop and turn, you made some good bets. -Moz "I'm a well-wisher, in that I don't wish you any specific harm." | ||
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| Re: B&M hand- opinions please, Radman, 29. Aug 2003 20:14 | ||
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| hmm. I think playing here is a good idea if A) there's a good chance you wont get raised(as you stated was the case) B) you think you can play it well, ie get away from most Q flops. I'll disagree with the others on the flop raise also. Why do you need to find out where you are in the hand, when you're nowhere(at this point)? it would be tough for me to drop on a reraise with that many bets in the center and a open end draw. Now I'd love the turn and wouldn't mind the river card too much either, So pound away there. | ||
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| Re: B&M hand- opinions please, Radman, 29. Aug 2003 20:33 | ||
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| One other thing. "thin the field" gets beat into our brains by the books, and for good reason. That being said I can't think of one reason to attempt it in this situation. you want as much calling as possible here! | ||
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| Re: B&M hand- opinions please, EC, 30. Aug 2003 10:44 | ||
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| I'm just going to second that. This is the exact opposite time you would want to thin the field. Not sure what information you would get from a flop raise anyway. Also not sure why you were hesitant to bet on the turn, since you got the card you (should have) wanted. If you were afraid of AQ (which someone would have had to have limped with pre-flop), you're looking for the monster under the bed. And if drawing the 9 instead of the A to complete your straight was going to scare you, you were essentially raising with a gutshot on the flop. It all worked out, but I also second the point that Q3s isn't a good hand to get involved with at all. Eli on 29. Aug 2003 20:33 Radman wrote: > One other thing. "thin the field" gets beat into our brains by the books, and for good reason. > That being said I can't think of one reason to attempt it in this situation. you want as much > calling as possible here! | ||
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| Re: B&M hand- opinions please, MozMan, 30. Aug 2003 11:01 | ||
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| Well, the kind of information you are looking for is that monster under the bed. You see, he raises the flop, but doesn't get re-raised, now he can have some confidence on the turn bet. Now, as I said in my other post, this is NOT necessary, just one good way to handle it. Another possibility is to call the flop with you draw, then with the non-nut str8 on the turn, throw in a raise to see what's what and to try to pump the pot. If someone has the A-high, they will reraise, and you can consider bailing on your str8 with a clear conscience. -Moz "I'm a well-wisher, in that I don't wish you any specific harm." | ||
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| Re: B&M hand- opinions please, DJpoker, 30. Aug 2003 11:15 | ||
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| Radman, Excellent point about not thinning the field in ths case. Foraces, you had 15 outs to catch your straight or flush after that flop. Why would you want everybody out? From what you described, it sounds like people would be playing hands like 9-8, 8-7, or small diamonds hoping to catch. The only thing I would fear is Kx or Ax of diamonds. Of course you would need to watch people's starting hands when they show earlier in the night to get a feel for what people play. BY the way, I agree with most that Q-3 is a major dog. Remember you only catch a flush 9% of the time you have suited cards and Q-3 will lose much more than winning. Good luck out there. DJpoker | ||
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| Re: B&M hand- opinions please, MozMan, 30. Aug 2003 10:49 | ||
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| on 29. Aug 2003 20:14 Radman wrote: > hmm. I think playing here is a good idea if A) there's a good chance you wont get > raised(as you stated was the case) B) you think you can play it well, ie get away from > most Q flops. I disagree. Cards smaller than 8 to compliment your face cards are poison for your hand. In the long run, you are losing money seeing flops with this hand. This is really only the kind of hand you want to be in the BB and not get raised. You ESPECIALLY do not want to be playing this from EP. > > I'll disagree with the others on the flop raise also. Why do you need to find out where > you are in the hand, when you're nowhere(at this point)? it would be tough for me to drop > on a reraise with that many bets in the center and a open end draw. The raise on the flop can go either way. It's a good play, but it's not necessary, and not something I would do all the time. It's just as good to simply call. The reason you might want to raise the flop is as a semi-bluff. You might scare off a couple, then if a scary card falls but you don't fill your str8, they don't know that and a bet now on the turn might win you a pot that you don't deserve. The idea is that you are assuming you are NOT going to make your hand, because most of the time you won't. > > Now I'd love the turn and wouldn't mind the river card too much either, So pound away > there. -Moz "I'm a well-wisher, in that I don't wish you any specific harm." | ||
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| Re: B&M hand- opinions please, Schuster, 30. Aug 2003 12:23 | ||
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| Comments are spliced within! > 1) Was I wrong to play Qd 3d for $4 with $22 already in the pot and 7 players > to act after me? Note this is not the type of hand I normally play. Is 5.5-1 > good enough odds here, assuming I would fold if the flop didn't fit my hand. Lee: Q3s is not the kind of hand you want to play. You're basically drawing to a queen high flush. It's true that with all that dead money in there you can loosen up your requirements a little bit, but I think you went overboard. For example, I normally muck ATo in EP, but maybe now you can open for a raise with it and try to get all that dead money into a heads up situation. Same might go for a hand like KQo where you might normally just limp. Q3s, even with 5.5 to 1, is not worth playing. You're about 8 to 1 to flop a flush draw, and that's just a draw. On top of that, you're in early position, so you really can't make enough off your flush as if you were in late position, assuming you make it. > 2) Was my raise on the flop too far out of line with an open ended straight > draw. (The runner-runner flush draw didn't factor into my decision.) With all this money around, no one is going to fold their flush draw. The only hands you are driving out are hands that you want to stay in. Maybe someone will call with something like AJ and try to catch their gutshot. Let them. You aren't going to win without catching your straight, and it's very unlikely you will win if you don't. > 3) What would you have done at each point I would have mucked preflop, but assuming I was still in, I would have just called on the flop. I would have bet the turn if checked to, and raised if bet to me. You hit the card you were hoping for with redraws to the flush, pound the pot until you think you're beaten (which is only by AQ). Lee | ||
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| Re: B&M hand- opinions please, Radman, 30. Aug 2003 12:55 | ||
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| Moz- I don't play trash like Q3's very often, but in this situation I'm not so sure it is trash with that many bets already in the pot in a game you probably wont get raised(as he didn't) and your likely to get even more fish limping in(as he did) I think everyone's points are right on about throwing this away, in a typical game. In this situation, in a 4-8 it's a money maker if you play it well. IMO As far as the raise. True if someone has the nuts they'll let you know, but I'd be reraising you with any number of hands here that your Straight or flush will beat if you hit. Now you'll automuck your baby straight if I lead out with my set on the turn? this flop is the clearest check and call I can think of. No need for tricks. | ||
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| Re: B&M hand- opinions please, Schuster, 30. Aug 2003 13:49 | ||
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| > Moz- I don't play trash like Q3's very often, but in this situation I'm not so sure it is > trash with that many bets already in the pot in a game you probably wont get raised(as he > didn't) and your likely to get even more fish limping in(as he did) I think everyone's > points are right on about throwing this away, in a typical game. In this situation, in a > 4-8 it's a money maker if you play it well. IMO I might play this on the puck if conditions for the game were right. Other than that, what are you hoping to flop? 2 pair, trips, or a flush draw. Odds are against all of those. There's also a chance that you flop top pair queens and it ends up being good, but you won't be able to tell up front. Sure there will be more fish limping in, but odds are that they have better cards than Q3s. You just can't make money with hands like this in early position. I think it was Grant Pittman who said that if you can't feel the power of position when you're playing a hand, you don't understand it well enough (correct me if I'm wrong Grant). It's one of the most profound statements concerning position that I've ever heard. > As far as the raise. True if someone has the nuts they'll let you know, but I'd be > reraising you with any number of hands here that your Straight or flush will beat if you > hit. > > Now you'll automuck your baby straight if I lead out with my set on the turn? this flop > is the clearest check and call I can think of. No need for tricks. I'm a bit confused here by what you mean. I definately wouldn't muck this on the turn, but if I raised and someone 3 bet me, I'd be a little worried. Either they also have a queen and I'm freerolling against them (unless they have Qx of the other flush draw) or they have AQ (in which case they played the flop poorly). Either way, I'd still see the river, and I'd probably still pay it off. Lee | ||
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| Re: B&M hand- opinions please, shorn, 2. Sep 2003 05:01 | ||
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| I like your play from the flop on. However, I never would have called pre-flop with this hand. There are just too many ways you can lose with it even if you hit. Also, you described the game as "generally loose with no more than 1 raise pre-flop". Well, if that is the standard starting point, then your effective odds are not 5.5 to 1; they are 22/8 or 2.75 to 1. Fold and wait for a better spot is what I would have done despite the dead money in the pot. And, if you do choose to play, I probably would have raised to get out a hand like Q9 so if you flop a Queen, you have a beeter chance to win. | ||
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