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Server Time: 9/6/2008 10:01:22 AM PACIFIC |
 Mistake Not to Raise, epper, 29. Aug 2003 11:42 | ||
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| The following occurred in a recent game. I am one of the button in a lower limit hold em game. Almost everyone calls, which is uncommon for the game. I have Q2 suited, which I almost always muck, but figure that I might get the right action if the hand hits. Probably should have mucked, right? I call and the bblind raises. Everyone calls and we have about 6 or 7 players. Flop come Q 2 4 rainbow. First player bets, a call, a fold, a raise to my right, and I am between calling and raising with two behind me. I think about raise, but don't want people to put me on a hand or to drive out money and want to raise on the next round. Fold call fold -- three players. A J of diamonds comes and there is a possible flush. Cannot remember the next play, but I think there was a bet and raise. Another J falls and there are three checks. Player 1 has set of Js, player to my right has Qs and Js with a better kicker than I had. Should I have raised to drive out player #1 and get heads up with the player in front of me?? Thanks. | ||
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| Re: Mistake Not to Raise, Brian462, 29. Aug 2003 11:51 | ||
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| Seems like the poker gods were teaching you a lesson about calling with hands that you know should be mucked. | ||
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| Re: Mistake Not to Raise, epper, 30. Aug 2003 14:28 | ||
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| lol | ||
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| Re: Mistake Not to Raise, Phish, 29. Aug 2003 12:11 | ||
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| In this hand, raising most likely wouldn't have done any good since the guy with the QJ most likely would not have folded. But in general, you absolutely should have raised. The pot was big enough that your primarily concern on the flop should be to thin the field anyway you can. I think the importance of driving out opponents in a multi-way pot (unless you have the unbeatable monster) cannot be overemphasized. | ||
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| Re: Mistake Not to Raise, epper, 30. Aug 2003 14:31 | ||
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| Very good analysis and that is what i thought. Probably a mistake to play the hand to begin with, but once in, i should have tried to drive people out because i could not really have improved. as for the qj, there is nothing that i could have done and would have been better heads up. ty | ||
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| Re: Mistake Not to Raise, Skeeter011, 29. Aug 2003 13:18 | ||
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| I have only read the subject of your question and I can tell you that is never a mistake not to raise. Don't get me wrong raising is not a bad thing, but it's never a mistake. | ||
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| Re: Mistake Not to Raise, Jav, 29. Aug 2003 13:27 | ||
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| I would have to disagree with you on that one. There are many times when not raising is a mistake. | ||
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| Re: Mistake Not to Raise, Brett LeMarinel, 29. Aug 2003 13:52 | ||
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| I would totally agree with Jav here, while reasons can be made for you not to raise on occaisions, there are definately reasons to raise, and cases where not raising is a huge mistake. This is a good example of that. Raising here not only may win you the hand(you didnt know a player had QJ at the time)but you may force people out who could beat you later in the hand. Also, you can put someone on a hand, if someone flopped a set, better to find out now than to wait for the "expensive" street to make ur raise and find out then, when you have committed more to the pot. Furthermore, you can find out where you are at, take the lead in the hand, many advantages, that a mere call does not give you. Definately a need for a raise. | ||
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| Re: Mistake Not to Raise, epper, 31. Aug 2003 08:50 | ||
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| ty -- agree and appreciate it | ||
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| Re: Mistake Not to Raise, noiseboy, 29. Aug 2003 13:27 | ||
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| That's exactly what the problem is with hands like Q2, you have to worry about higher flushes if you get the draw you want, and if you hit top pair you are worried about a pair with a higher kicker, even if you hit two pair (as you did), a lot of times the board will pair and you are screwed. That being said, if you were in the small blind I could see calling for a half bet with a ton of callers and no raise, but you have to be really cautious with it. Even if you flop a made flush, another suited card can fall and give someone with a single A or K in that suit a bigger flush. Anyway, hands like that are huge trouble, even in loose games. | ||
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| Re: Mistake Not to Raise, Easy E, 29. Aug 2003 18:35 | ||
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| Yes, you should have reraised, unless the initial raiser would have hung around to catch the Jack and then the second one. In lower limit, loose games, Qx suited can be played for the flush as well, it just has to be played somewhat carefully. I'd be more worried about a 4th flush on the board than I would about being out-flushed by a 2-card opponent when only 3 are on board. It will happen, but not as often as you'd think. TIghter games, however, mean you won't get paid off as much to make up for the times that you are beaten by higher flush, or redrawn out on. | ||
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| Re: Mistake Not to Raise, Flatout_Mainiac, 30. Aug 2003 05:06 | ||
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| "I am between calling and raising with two behind me. I think about raise, but don't want people to put me on a hand or to drive out money and want to raise on the next round." Why don't you want people to put you on a hand? This is exactly what you want to do when that flop hits. Actually, you want people to think you flopped a something big, like a set. You should raise because there is a chance you can win right there or worst case go heads up with the top pair in which case you are still a favorite. If you get capped her then you know you're in trouble before you have to pay big bets. If you get called you might want to call in and muck if anything scary comes up or the guy you have on the top pair bets into you as the final raiser. Don't get greedy and slowplay thinking you are going to pump up the pot with the bigger turn bet. The turn and river are not friends of the Q2. You got very lucky to hit that flop, try to cash in on that luck right on the flop. Good Luck!!!! | ||
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| Re: Mistake Not to Raise, epper, 31. Aug 2003 08:51 | ||
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| thanx | ||
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| Re: Mistake to be in the pot, DJpoker, 30. Aug 2003 11:44 | ||
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| Hey epper, I have no clue why you played Q2 except that you may have been getting bored, tired or frustrated or just wanted to truly roll the dice. I am by no means an expert, but I can tell you never go to war with a kickstand fit for a tricycle. Someone else was talking about Q3 in another post on this page. Please take this as constructive criticism, but if I were at your table, I would be very happy to see you play those hands. With that said, pound the crap out of the flop. If you catch Q-2, you better try to win the hand right there. Granted, it may hold up, but as you saw, the real hands caught and passed you. Anyway, good luck out there and register that hand as a great learning experience. DJpoker | ||
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| Re: Mistake to be in the pot, epper, 31. Aug 2003 08:54 | ||
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| Poker is all about learning. Sklandky says hat you can play such hands on the button and I extended it to one off the button when there was no raise and lots of players. I generally would never play this hand, but it is a regular game and I need to change my play a little. I figure that at least I know that it was a mistake and I learned to pound the flop when you get two pair. Ty | ||
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