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Server Time: 8/30/2008 12:16:34 AM PACIFIC |
 Folded A-Ks pre-flop, Urban Chaos, 29. Aug 2003 02:48 | ||
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| I was playing in my very first No Limit Hold Em tourney @ Hollywood Park on Tuesday. Right before the second break, I get A-Ks and bet 2 or 3 thousand (I'm leading the table with around 30,000). Everyone drops except the big blind, who raises All-In. Now I've watched this guy from Go and he's created the most action at the table...he's not a solid rock, but he's usually raised big with high pocket pair. His all-in is about 8-10,000 so I can cover it and could beat him. But this is my first tourney and I want to survive...I don't want to take a big hit to my stack right before this break. So I tell him I'm not going to fight him for it this close to the break and show the table my A-Ks. There are gasps. He says, "Good lay down," and shows me J-J. At the break, it turns out I'm chip leader with $28,500. I tell this story later to some voyeurs and most of the people I talk to agree it was a good lay down. A tough one, but a good one, considering my reasons. Your thoughts? (By the way, I got to the final table and finished 10th...not bad for a first-time tournament player, IMO.) | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, Squaliform, 29. Aug 2003 03:09 | ||
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| It all depends on whether you were in a gambling mood. Many pros would lay that down because they aren't willing to put their tournament life on a race. Basically, you had to ask yourself if you were willing to flip a coin for the pot. If you said no, then good lay down. However, depending on how much you had invested, the pot odds may made that a correct call. | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, johnny, 29. Aug 2003 05:13 | ||
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| > However, depending on how much you had invested, the pot odds may > made that a correct call. How could you possibly get pot odds to make that call correct? As you said, it is basically a coin flip and since it's just the two of them in this pot, pot odds can never be much better than 1:1. At his decision point the pot was laying him 4:5. Am I missing something? Thanks, Johnny. | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, JLenart, 29. Aug 2003 06:40 | ||
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| Thats a good question. I've been having problems with pot odds in NL. If someone makes a pot sized bet you essentially don't have any odds to draw at it since the pot odds are 2:1. Unless you're ahead you don't have odds to call. HELP! I just don't get it. LOL Seriously if someone could explain this concept I'd appreciate it. Thanks, John | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, McMonkey, 29. Aug 2003 09:51 | ||
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| I think the idea in NL is that althought the big bets eliminate your immediate pot odds, they also dramatically increase your implied odds, so that's where it becomes alright to draw. BUT in a tournament type situation pot and implied odds don't matter as much because even if you make a good call based on pot odds you usually don't have the time to play the same hand enough times to make it profitable because you have a limited amount of time/chips. For example you have 10k chips and you're drawing to a gut-shot (11 to 1 I believe). The pot is 15k and the bet to you is 1k. You have the pot odds to make the call, but if you lose that's 1/10 of your stack gone. You don't have enough chips to make that play the required 11 times to make it profitable. That's why, as someone pointed out in a post last week, in tournaments you should probably stay away from investing too much into long-shot draws regardless of pot-size. They're a fast ticket to an early exit. | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, MozMan, 29. Aug 2003 07:28 | ||
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| In this situation, it's a virtual coin-flip. There really are no pot odds involved. This is the part of the game that is all feel, and no mechanics; you have to pick your battles and decided when you want to gamble. Having AK, he is a slight dog to JJ, but he has 6 outs over 5 cards; any A or K wins the pot, as long as the board doesn't help his opponent at all. The conservative thing to do is fold off, saving your chips for a different battle, and that's a good decision. The competitve thing to do is make the call, hoping to catch an A or K, chip-up for a better lead and knock one more out of competition; also a good decision. Given his read of the player, knowing he would have a high pair (some will push all-in with any pair, means it's about even money that the guy's pair is aces or kings, and that would be bad. The other options are queens or jacks. Given that it had to be one of those, I think he made the best possible decision for the situation. -Moz "I'm a well-wisher, in that I don't wish you any specific harm." | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, Phish, 29. Aug 2003 08:59 | ||
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| Given that you had 30K to his 10K, and given that you already had 3K in there and it would've only cost you 7K more to potentially win 13K, and given that you had said that he's created a lot of action (meaning he's a loose player?), I think a call was definitely warranted. IF you knew what he had (JJ), you should've called. In fact, if you knew that he'd go all-in only with JJ,QQ,KK,or AA, it still would not have been a bad call. | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, noiseboy, 29. Aug 2003 09:26 | ||
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| It kinda depends. I would probably call, since you described him as an action player. An action player going all-in tells me that maybe he doesn't want a call, he just wants to win the pot right away. He probably has a good hand, but one that is somewhat vulnerable like a pair between QQ's and 99's. Action players will often wait to come at you with AA's or KK's because they want to get more value from those hands. Against a really tight player, I think a fold is correct. You are most likely against AA's or KK's, and QQ's or AK for a split might be the best case scenarios. If you think you are against AA's or KK's then you have to lay it down. If you think he would go all-in with less, then you are getting odds on a call; however, it may be better not to call to protect your stack. As Sklansky says, it might be better to avoid a close gamble now, if losing the bet will take away the even better opportunities later on. If you are a really good final table player, then maybe you fold and protect your stack. However, if you call and win, you will be in great chip position for the final table, so that is to be considered as well. All in all, you have to go with your read on the player, what hands is he likely to go all-in with? Is he going all-in because he wants you to fold, because he thinks you are weak, or does he have a monster and wants you to call? | ||
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| one qualification, noiseboy, 29. Aug 2003 11:29 | ||
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| My advice to call above was completely predicated on the statement that this player "created the most action at the table" and is "not a rock". However, if your observations tell you that he goes all-in mostly with AA's or KK's, then a call is out of the question. When you said he went in with some high pairs, I was thinking more along the lines of TT's through QQ's as most action players will try to milk KK's and AA's for a big pot. Basically, go with your read of the situation. | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, shorn, 29. Aug 2003 10:36 | ||
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| You can't win the tournament in the first few rounds, so you definitely have to lay this down, especially after you have watched this guy raise with only big pairs. With this read, you are at best a coin flip to even 22, and it is not the time for you (the chip leader) to risk 1/3 of your stack on a coin flip. As Malmuth states, "each chip won is worth less than the previous one and each chip lost is worth more." | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, EC, 29. Aug 2003 12:09 | ||
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| That's the same tournament I was writing about in my post, it was also my first NL tourney. Congrats on doing much better than I did, clearing a field of over 200 people is no small feat. I'll likely be back next Tuesday, will you be there? Eli on 29. Aug 2003 02:48 Urban Chaos wrote: > I was playing in my very first No Limit Hold Em tourney @ Hollywood Park on > Tuesday. Right before the second break, I get A-Ks and bet 2 or 3 thousand (I'm > leading the table with around 30,000). Everyone drops except the big blind, who > raises All-In. > > Now I've watched this guy from Go and he's created the most action at the > table...he's not a solid rock, but he's usually raised big with high pocket > pair. His all-in is about 8-10,000 so I can cover it and could beat him. But > this is my first tourney and I want to survive...I don't want to take a big hit > to my stack right before this break. So I tell him I'm not going to fight him > for it this close to the break and show the table my A-Ks. There are gasps. He > says, "Good lay down," and shows me J-J. At the break, it turns out I'm chip > leader with $28,500. > > I tell this story later to some voyeurs and most of the people I talk to agree > it was a good lay down. A tough one, but a good one, considering my reasons. > Your thoughts? > > (By the way, I got to the final table and finished 10th...not bad for a > first-time tournament player, IMO.) | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, stdioh, 29. Aug 2003 15:24 | ||
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| Sure. What's the point in playing your AK all in there? You nolonger have any implied odds to get more money if you hit your hand and you're slightly less than a coin flip to win. Now by folding you lose what you have already put in the pot and what you have in the pot would give you odds to call if you were certain that he were on e lower pair, but you're not certain of that. If he's on KK or AA you are toast and those are both reasonably possible holdings. More importantly having a chiplead gives you a big advantage. In tournaments big stacks get bigger and small stacks die. It isn't worth a 50/50 gamble to either game $10K or lose it. Fold and wait for a better opportunity. As the big stack you can kick everybody around anyway. Though folding face up was a bad idea. It'll encourage people to try to steal from you. | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, Jav, 29. Aug 2003 15:40 | ||
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| That's a good point. I don't ever want to advertise that I will lay down a good hand, that just encourages maniacs AND good players to come over the top of you later in the game. | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, Formless, 29. Aug 2003 19:29 | ||
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| I'd call in a heartbeat and unless I'm missing something I think folding is a mistake and not a small one. Blinds are 500-1000. You bet 3000, say he goes all-in for 9000. There is 12500 in the pot and its 6000 to call, better than 2 to 1. If your opponent would only raise with JJ, QQ, KK, AA you have 38.4% pot equity, so right there you've got an decent overlay. But since you described him as an action player his raising range has got to be bigger than that. Action players love repopping out of the BB with pairs as low as 55, in which case you now have 44.4% pot equity. Add AK, AQs and the random bezerko factor and it's getting close to a coin flip: AA,AKs,AQs,AKo,KK,QQ,Q9s & JTs (for action factor),JJ, TT, 99, 88,77, 66, 55 versus AKs is only a 51.6% favorite. Even considering tournament strategy and all that, this is a no-brainer call I think. You are getting 2:1 on a coin flip for a big pot. I think you left a theoretical six thousand bucks on the table. Good post. on 29. Aug 2003 02:48 Urban Chaos wrote: > I was playing in my very first No Limit Hold Em tourney @ Hollywood Park on > Tuesday. Right before the second break, I get A-Ks and bet 2 or 3 thousand (I'm > leading the table with around 30,000). Everyone drops except the big blind, who > raises All-In. > > Now I've watched this guy from Go and he's created the most action at the > table...he's not a solid rock, but he's usually raised big with high pocket > pair. His all-in is about 8-10,000 so I can cover it and could beat him. But > this is my first tourney and I want to survive...I don't want to take a big hit > to my stack right before this break. So I tell him I'm not going to fight him > for it this close to the break and show the table my A-Ks. There are gasps. He > says, "Good lay down," and shows me J-J. At the break, it turns out I'm chip > leader with $28,500. > > I tell this story later to some voyeurs and most of the people I talk to agree > it was a good lay down. A tough one, but a good one, considering my reasons. > Your thoughts? > > (By the way, I got to the final table and finished 10th...not bad for a > first-time tournament player, IMO.) | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, Urban Chaos, 30. Aug 2003 03:46 | ||
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| Thanks for all the responses! Most of what you all posted (except for the math and pot odds...my current weakness) was what went through my head at the time of the decision. And as a new tourney player, I'm pleased to know my thinking is on the right track and that I feel even more validated making that non-call. I don't lament that decision, but I'm glad I have a few other ways to look at it as well, if I end up in a similar situation in the future. EC, --I won't be there next Tues, but am trying to arrange my work schedule so I can be there at least once a month, if not more. (I was on table 6, seat 6 that night.) stdioh, --re: folding face up and advertising...yeah I guess that was hubris. :) I wanted the shock value and to have the table respect the decision immediately...I wanted the opposite reaction than you describe: that I can make good decisions AND have cards worth respecting. But I totally see your point. In fact, thinking about it, I show my cards too often. (Later in the tourney I went all-in with 9-9 as a semi-bluff in front of the chip-leader, who after much thought folded and so did the player after him. I took the pot. Player #3 exposed his pocket fives as he folded...chip leader says he had pocket sixes and player 3 would have lost. As they argued while I swept the chips, I slapped my nines on the table to shut them both up.) Formless, ---You make sense...except at this point (as I recall) the ante's and blinds were not hardly that high, so the pot is not what you think it is. I think the antes were around $200 each. Whatever, I do see your point. | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, EC, 30. Aug 2003 11:01 | ||
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| Table 7, seat 10 for me, which puts us back to back. Small world. Don't forget that Endless Summer is now Endless Winter. Not sure where Endless Fall went, but I guess you shouldn't be calling a tournament that :) Eli on 30. Aug 2003 03:46 Urban Chaos wrote: > EC, > --I won't be there next Tues, but am trying to arrange my work schedule so I can be > there at least once a month, if not more. (I was on table 6, seat 6 that night.) | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, flintsword, 30. Aug 2003 14:07 | ||
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| So early in the tournament, who needs a coin flip? I liked your call despite your chip advantage. The critical question is: "Have you behaved in such a way as to give the raising player reason to believe that you are weak can be pushed off a hand?" If the answer is "Yes" or even "Perhaps", ... you should bet, ... if only to let the rest of the table know that you will not be pushed around with a premium hand. I recall an article (I believe it was a Phil Helmuth article but unsure ...) describing a play where, early in a tournament, a player called all the way to the river with the sole objective to make sure that other players knew that he "could" call a hand all the way to the river. In a tournament, this strategy would be lost against beginners, but better players are alert for opportunities to win uncontested pots, and targeting a player deemed "weak" is a prime opportunity. Which brings us to your showing the AK to the table. I think this is a big mistake. Yes, it was a big laydown, but showing it to the table did only one thing: It told the rest of the table that a percentage of the time, you can be pushed off AK. By showing it you have "guaranteed" that you will be reraised in a critical hand by one of the players at your table (or someone watching your game but playing at another table) and it will be tougher for you to know if that player has a real hand or is just testing you. Tell UPF about your laydown, ... but for the players at your table, ... you just folded some hand, unknown, and you remain unpredictable. Hope this comment helps and if someone disagrees with me, I sure would like to hear from them! Only way to improve is to speak clearly and listen to the critiques if and when they come! Good luck in your future Games Urban Chaos. flintsword | ||
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| Re: Folded A-Ks pre-flop, Urban Chaos, 31. Aug 2003 01:35 | ||
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| You're absolutely right about showing it. I should not have. It's one of about 4 moments from that tourney that I learned from. Thanks again. | ||
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