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Server Time: 12/1/2008 5:55:05 PM PACIFIC |
 Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, Dr_Monkey, 28. Aug 2003 07:39 | ||
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| I have been trying to use Wilson's Turbo Hold'em Version 5.0 to work on my game. Going to try limit games again and was hoping this software could give me realistic practice and help understand how to play after the flop. I have random profiles loaded, playing a 5/10 limit game. I get 22 in the big blind. 3 limp in and SB calls. Flop comes Kh 3h 10d The advice recommended to bet. Pocket under paier lower than 2+ board overcards. What I have been doing is to think of what the best possible choice is then compare that to the advice given by the software. My choice here would be to check and fold if anyone bets. 22 is just not a good hand to come out betting especially with 3 others yet to act. Anyone have any ideas of the logic of betting out with 22? | ||
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| Re: Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, Schuster, 28. Aug 2003 07:56 | ||
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| I believe the advice comes from Sklansky. He says (from memory, this isn't a directo quote) that if you hold a hand like this, you should bet if there is a chance you have the best hand and everyone else will fold if you do. The problem I see is that with a K and a T and a flush draw, if you get called, you won't know if it's by someone with a draw, or by somenoe who has a better hand. Then you will feel obligated to fire again at the turn if it's a blank, then check and call the river if it doesn't look like the draw got there. If the board were more like K 8 3 rainbow, you could fire, because you're only going to get called by someone if they have a king. Even if they do have just a draw, unless it contains a deuce, they're about even money to end up with a better hand than you by the river and you'll have no idea where you stand. But given how coordinated the board is here and how bad your position is, I'd check and fold. Maybe part of the problem is that the computer is trying to generalize the situation without taking into account the flop texture. I can't imagine anyone wanted to bet into this board with pocket deuces from the blind. Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, Dr_Monkey, 28. Aug 2003 08:15 | ||
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| I see what you are saying, but to me, 22 is just to weak to be betting out with. And with 4 others seeing the flop. My hope with 22 is to flop a set, if not, check/fold. Maybe the software is grouping 22 with all other small pairs. I could see betting with maybe 66 or 55, but 22 is just an odd choice to come out firing. | ||
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| Re: Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, 4 POKER, 28. Aug 2003 08:30 | ||
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| on 28. Aug 2003 08:15 Dr_Monkey wrote: > I see what you are saying, but to me, 22 is just to weak to be betting out with. And with > 4 others seeing the flop. > > My hope with 22 is to flop a set, if not, check/fold. > > Maybe the software is grouping 22 with all other small pairs. I could see betting with > maybe 66 or 55, but 22 is just an odd choice to come out firing. Dr M, Just out of curiosity........if the board read something like K-10-3 with a flush draw, and you were in the BB with 6-6, or 5-5 (with 4 others seeing the flop).........why would you feel more comfortable leading at a flop like that ,with that pair then you would if you held 2-2? If someone has flopped a pair of Kings or a pair of Tens, wouldn't you still need to improve to a 2-outer on the turn, and providing that if you did hit the set there, that it doesn't now bring a made flush with it either. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, Schuster, 28. Aug 2003 08:34 | ||
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| 4 poker hit it. You're drawing near dead if anyone has a king. It doesn't really matter if your pair is 22 or 66, or even 99. In fact, it doesn't really matter what your hand is here. If the flop is something really uncoordinated like K 8 3 and the small blind checks, I will lead from the big blind every time if there is only one other player left to act.. The chances of picking it up are very good, definately better than 1 in 3, the pot odds you're getting on the bet. With a coordinated flop like that, check and maybe you'll get lucky and spike a 2 if it's checked around. Otherwise, save your money. Lee | ||
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| Re: Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, 4 POKER, 28. Aug 2003 08:37 | ||
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| on 28. Aug 2003 08:34 Schuster wrote: > 4 poker hit it. You're drawing near dead if anyone has a king. It doesn't really matter if your > pair is 22 or 66, or even 99. In fact, it doesn't really matter what your hand is here. If the > flop is something really uncoordinated like K 8 3 and the small blind checks, I will lead from the > big blind every time if there is only one other player left to act.. The chances of picking it up > are very good, definately better than 1 in 3, the pot odds you're getting on the bet. With a > coordinated flop like that, check and maybe you'll get lucky and spike a 2 if it's checked around. > Otherwise, save your money. > > Lee I agree to what you have said as well! The problem is, the more opponents you have in the hand, the harder it will become for a play like that to work. With a board that is so coordinated, and with two high cards......leading at the flop with 2-2 would be incorrect too many of the times IMO. | ||
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| Re: Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, noiseboy, 28. Aug 2003 09:58 | ||
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| Against tight players it might be okay to lead. If you get called you can just try to check down to showdown. If someone raises, you are done. With that many players, I'm with you on not leading unless it's a bunch of tight wads. | ||
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| Re: Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, Brett LeMarinel, 28. Aug 2003 08:27 | ||
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| I think the important thing to remember here is that the bet is being made not because you know you have the best hand, but because you don't know if anyone else does. If no one raised preflop, it is unlikely you are up against AK or KK which would be the only hands you wouldve seen a preflop raise. The bet gives you two opportunities to win the pot, if the other players dont hold a K or a flush draw, you will be representing Ks and may force out someone with 2nd or 3rd pair with a bet. If you do get called, and a blank comes on the turn, I would suggest betting again, still representing Ks. At this point you will again be called only by flush draw or a K. If you do get raised, then it is a judgement call. On the river if the flush misses and you have been called all the way, again I think a bet may win the pot. My point and I think the lesson turbo is teaching here, is to represent the Ks until you have reason to believe you are beaten. At which point you can check or fold. | ||
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| Here's what I think is important about it, Easy E, 28. Aug 2003 09:37 | ||
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| one- you're playing against Profiles, and getting advice based ON a Profile, so by definition it will be limited. two- I've always taken the advice with a grain of salt, much like ANY advice I get from ANY source (no matter how expert/informed that it might be). I think the important thing that occurred is that it made you think about the play of the hand and question WHY you play it the way that you do and wonder if it could/should be played another way. Like you, I would have ignored the advice here. Taking a stab at the pot might have been worth it on the flop (I assume no one thinks that another stab on a rag turn would have been wise, barring very weak/tight players), or at least a strategy consideration.... but I would not want to face two more potential overcards myself, even WITH the 2h :o However, your chance of success, plus the gain in future hands (when they see you stab at the pot and show the weak pair, or fold to their raise) when you have a better hand down the road, might make this a viable option? It does give you something to think about, which is always good, and which I've always considered the most important "function" of the Wilson software products. Where else can you stop for a half-hour to research, or replay multiple times with different actions or different lineups, or do a simulation afterwards to confirm conclusions? | ||
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| Re: Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, Easy E, 28. Aug 2003 09:28 | ||
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| Depends- did you have the 2h? ;) | ||
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| Re: Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, Dr_Monkey, 28. Aug 2003 20:23 | ||
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| on 28. Aug 2003 09:28 Easy E wrote: > Depends- did you have the 2h? > > ;) Yeah I think I did have the 2h. | ||
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| Re: Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, noiseboy, 28. Aug 2003 09:53 | ||
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| I like the "bet out to represent the KK's" idea much better if I was the pre-flop raiser with something like a pair of 88s. They are much more likely to all fold if you have already showed aggression. I think with the 22's in bad position against that board, I'll usually check fold and avoid any trouble. If it gets checked around and a blank (or what looks to me like a blank) hits the board, THEN I will bet out and try to win the pot right there because I am representing that I had a K but maybe I didn't bet because of bad position+weak kicker, or perhaps I have AK or KQ and was looking for the check raise to thin the field. Sometimes it works! Not to be tried against the calling stations, for certain! | ||
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| Re: Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, Charles Kincy, 28. Aug 2003 21:15 | ||
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| You have to keep in mind that TTH is designed to teach you to be selective and aggressive. Even if you really don't understand the reasons for the recommended play, if you just take its recommendatioms uncritically, you will make a small, but consistent profit in soft games. Eventually, as you gain more experience, you can start to see when NOT to lead out with 22 in that instance. The reason it's a good move is that your opponents already perceive you as tight, so they have no reason to believe that you have anything than top pair with a strong kicker. However, this move will not work against very bad players, as they will tend to just call you and never give a thought to what you have. | ||
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| Re: Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, Formless, 28. Aug 2003 21:22 | ||
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| I too have often been puzzled by TTHE Advisor's early position flop advice. I ignore it when it tells me to do something goofy like bet 22 into a KT3 flop. Other than that though it's pretty awesome. On this flop you are against 4 players with 8 cards. There are two cards in the kill zone. You can get called with a K, T, flush draw, straight draw, Ace high. I understand if your bet wins the pot even 20% of the time on the flop it shows an immediate profit, and it can still win when called, but your position stinks, you can get raised, and if you get called by more than one player you have little chance of winning. This is a textbook compounding error hand for me. I'd check, fold and be done with it. | ||
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| Re: Advice from Wilson's Turbo Hold'em, noiseboy, 29. Aug 2003 14:43 | ||
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| In addition, if you check you might get a free card and spike a 2. Then if you had someone in the pot with a K who either checked because of kicker trouble or was trying to check raise, then you might make some money on the set. | ||
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