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Server Time: 12/1/2008 6:42:59 PM PACIFIC |
 Did I play this wrong, Jon01, 28. Aug 2003 07:00 | ||
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| Here's the situation: 3/6 HE at PartyPoker, game is loose (as always) with a couple aggressive players. I get dealt AJo. UTG comes out with a raise. He's a bad player who raises on any decent hand (pair, two faces) and then will stay with the hand way too long, so I see this as a great opportunity to isolate him. Also, player one off the button has posted, so there's a bigger pot to win. I figure if I just call, we'll have at least 4 players and I don't want to play AJ against that many. Next player folds and I re-raise. Everyone folds except UTG who calls. Flop comes KQJ rainbow. UTG bets and I raise to get some info (he's the type of player who will bet his pocket pair on the flop to overcards). I get re-raised and call, putting him on a straight, two pair, AK, or trips (QQ or JJ, he would have re-raised with AA or KK). Turn is a ten and he bets again. I raise and get re-raised. Here is where I'm unsure of my play. As I saw it, I had just announced loud-and-clear that I had an ace, so the only hands I could see him re-raising on were an ace as well or maybe trips. Also, the ten put two spades on the board so I'm worried he might have AKs and a chance to beat me on the river. I just call as most likely we'll split and the chance that he re-raised with trips is out-weighed (in my mind) by the chance that a spade will hit and I'll lose a hand that would have been chopped. River is another jack, and he checks. I check as well, figuring he either checked his straight in fear of a full-house or is planning to check-raise with a boat. Either way I have nothing to gain by betting. Well, he turns over KQ and I rake in a huge pot. I'm happy with the win but did I overthink things and miss two bets? Now I'm worried that I'm costing myself $$ by assuming the other players are rational. Thanks. Jon | ||
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| Re: Did I play this wrong, Paul Stine, 28. Aug 2003 07:46 | ||
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| Are you seriously asking if you played this wrong or are you just crowing about winning a nice pot by hitting your gutshot? That's what I thought. Let's see, ahh, here is a nice tidbit ... on the flop you get re-raised and call when every hand on which you put your opponent beats you and even if you improve to the best hand you can hope for, you may be splitting the pot. (Seems like sound decision making to me.) Then, after you catch your gutshot on the turn, ... you start to question your play?!?! Give me a giant break, please! Paul Stine College Station, TX on 28. Aug 2003 07:00 Jon01 wrote: > Here's the situation: > > 3/6 HE at PartyPoker, game is loose (as always) with a couple aggressive > players. > > I get dealt AJo. UTG comes out with a raise. He's a bad player who raises on > any decent hand (pair, two faces) and then will stay with the hand way too long, > so I see this as a great opportunity to isolate him. Also, player one off the > button has posted, so there's a bigger pot to win. I figure if I just call, > we'll have at least 4 players and I don't want to play AJ against that many. > > Next player folds and I re-raise. Everyone folds except UTG who calls. Flop > comes KQJ rainbow. UTG bets and I raise to get some info (he's the type of > player who will bet his pocket pair on the flop to overcards). I get re-raised > and call, putting him on a straight, two pair, AK, or trips (QQ or JJ, he would > have re-raised with AA or KK). > > Turn is a ten and he bets again. I raise and get re-raised. Here is where I'm > unsure of my play. As I saw it, I had just announced loud-and-clear that I had > an ace, so the only hands I could see him re-raising on were an ace as well or > maybe trips. Also, the ten put two spades on the board so I'm worried he might > have AKs and a chance to beat me on the river. I just call as most likely we'll > split and the chance that he re-raised with trips is out-weighed (in my mind) by > the chance that a spade will hit and I'll lose a hand that would have been > chopped. > > River is another jack, and he checks. I check as well, figuring he either > checked his straight in fear of a full-house or is planning to check-raise with > a boat. Either way I have nothing to gain by betting. Well, he turns over KQ > and I rake in a huge pot. I'm happy with the win but did I overthink things and > miss two bets? Now I'm worried that I'm costing myself $$ by assuming the other > players are rational. Thanks. > > Jon | ||
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| Re: Did I play this wrong, Jon01, 28. Aug 2003 07:59 | ||
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| Sorry if it came off like crowing. My question is whether I'm over-thinking hands agaisnt bad players and costing myself money. I am struggling right now to adjust my game to weak players and take full advantage of their mistakes. I find I do about the same against a decent table as a table full of idiots. This hand just represents one that I played as if I was playing against a solid player and it end up costing me (although not that much). I see these guys everywhere and watch this drop loads of money, but I don't seem to partake in the cash they are hemoraging. I'm just not sure how to adjust my game for the "this guy could be playing/betting anything" factor. Again, I apologize if it sounds like I was trying to crow. | ||
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| Re: Did I play this wrong, Mark, 28. Aug 2003 08:45 | ||
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| Hi I think you played the hand ok and your thought process was decent, but you didn't commit yourself to your reads. You know your opponent is loose and overly aggressive, so getting heads up with him is a great idea. But on the turn, you suddenly assume he is a tight player and would only raise with freerolling hand! Why? Against a tight player, i think that calling the turn and betting the river when a blank falls may be the right play. But against a loose player, 3 betting the turn with the nuts is the right thing to do. You already know he overplays his hands, and although he is showing great strength, you have the nuts. If you thought about the flop betting, do you really think he would 3 bet the flop with a gutshot str8 and a backdoor flush draw (the only hand which free rolls you). The only likely hand for that is AKsuited in spades, but that is only one of many hands he could play the way he did. There are many hands which seem just as likely, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, KQ, KJ, QJ all of which you beat. You should have 3 bet the turn against this opponent. Now on the river, check-calling is a good play. There are a few hands that he could easily check-raise with. However, on the turn, you were scared into calling by the possibility of AK suited, now you are scared into checking by the possibility of KJ or QJ. If KJ and QJ are possible hands, then you should have definiately 3-bet the turn, and if they aren't possible, then you can easily bet the river. You seem too scared of the nuts on both these rounds and did not consider ALL of the possible hands you opponent could be on. You missed one bet as i see it, but that is not really that bad. If you never miss a bet you are betting too much. Mark | ||
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| Re: Did I play this wrong, Schuster, 28. Aug 2003 08:50 | ||
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| Good analysis and I agree. I would have capped it on the turn, there's almost never a reason to not do so against an unastute opponent like this. There are a lot of hands that he could have that you're ahead of, and very few hands he could have that he is freerolling to beat you. Get the money in when you have the best of it, and if he draws out, then that's poker! | ||
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| Re: Did I play this wrong, EC, 28. Aug 2003 09:43 | ||
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| The thinking of the other player reminds me of a situation I was in a few weeks ago in a limit tournament- I have KK, by the river it's heads up with a guy in front of me, the board has AQJT. I've got the mortal nuts, he bets into me. I assume we're chopping but of course raise it anyway, he calls and turns over AQ, expressing shock that he lost because "I had top two pair!" I don't think he ever considered that someone could beat his "great" hand. Weaker players marry their hands and don't see/want to believe that they can be beat, no matter the evidence on the board. Sounds like you knew quite well he was this type of player, but you didn't factor it in when deciding on the turn. Like the other poster said, you instantly thought he was tight. Yes, bad players catch good cards, but you've still got to get your money in when you have the best of it, because they won't ALWAYS have good cards. Eli on 28. Aug 2003 07:00 Jon01 wrote: > Here's the situation: > > 3/6 HE at PartyPoker, game is loose (as always) with a couple aggressive > players. > > I get dealt AJo. UTG comes out with a raise. He's a bad player who raises on > any decent hand (pair, two faces) and then will stay with the hand way too long, > so I see this as a great opportunity to isolate him. Also, player one off the > button has posted, so there's a bigger pot to win. I figure if I just call, > we'll have at least 4 players and I don't want to play AJ against that many. > > Next player folds and I re-raise. Everyone folds except UTG who calls. Flop > comes KQJ rainbow. UTG bets and I raise to get some info (he's the type of > player who will bet his pocket pair on the flop to overcards). I get re-raised > and call, putting him on a straight, two pair, AK, or trips (QQ or JJ, he would > have re-raised with AA or KK). > > Turn is a ten and he bets again. I raise and get re-raised. Here is where I'm > unsure of my play. As I saw it, I had just announced loud-and-clear that I had > an ace, so the only hands I could see him re-raising on were an ace as well or > maybe trips. Also, the ten put two spades on the board so I'm worried he might > have AKs and a chance to beat me on the river. I just call as most likely we'll > split and the chance that he re-raised with trips is out-weighed (in my mind) by > the chance that a spade will hit and I'll lose a hand that would have been > chopped. > > River is another jack, and he checks. I check as well, figuring he either > checked his straight in fear of a full-house or is planning to check-raise with > a boat. Either way I have nothing to gain by betting. Well, he turns over KQ > and I rake in a huge pot. I'm happy with the win but did I overthink things and > miss two bets? Now I'm worried that I'm costing myself $$ by assuming the other > players are rational. Thanks. > > Jon | ||
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| Re: Did I play this wrong, frank snyder, 28. Aug 2003 11:20 | ||
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| I say better safe than sorry. i get rivered by bad players all the fucking time and it makes me sick ( happening right now on Ultimate bet). | ||
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| Re: Did I play this wrong, noiseboy, 28. Aug 2003 13:19 | ||
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| Three betting with a bad player with AJ might be a good idea; however, you still had several players behind you who could wake up with a real hand, including two who already had some money in and are more likely to call with something reasonable. I think you were lucky that your isolation was successful. Some of the play afterwards seems too aggressive, but if this guy plays as crazy as you say, maybe that would explain it. I'm assuming your post-flop play would be much different against a good player. | ||
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