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Server Time: 2/13/2012 2:46:01 PM PACIFIC |
 Blind stealing, OUTLAW, 27. Aug 2003 23:25 | ||
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| Hey guys, Lately Ive been wondering just how profitable blind stealing really is in your typical 5-10 B&M holdem game. I will play what I feel is a solid game for a while and then I'll pick up that A3o or K9o on the button/ cutoff and I'll throw in a raise only to get played with by one of the blinds. Then I wont hit but will bet when checked to, get called, get checked to again on the turn, now either throw in another 10 or slow down which I hate to do after already putting 15. I feel that this is where my profits get eaten up. Please help. | ||
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| Re: Blind stealing, Charles Kincy, 28. Aug 2003 02:30 | ||
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| Here are some general ideas. They aren't exhaustive, but I hope you find them helpful. If the game is usually fairly loose, and the players not very skilled, you don't need to steal blinds. Ever. The reason is you will make enough on your strong hands that you can sit 2 or 3 orbits and not have to make anything. If on a rare hand, it folds to you, then you should pretty much fold anything but a very strong hand. If the game is tight, and the blinds defend properly and play slightly tricky and aggressively, you are in a bad spot. You should either find a different game, or you should move so that your "steal position" picks on easier prey. If, on the other hand, the blinds overdefend, but are weak after the flop, then you just need to come with at least small amount of high-card strength (Q6 is probably even fine), and just pound away until you meet resistance. Usually they'll fold at some point, or if they beat you, they'll give the game away with a check-raise. Either way, you should only rarely have to show down your garbage. If the blinds underdefend, always steal. It doesn't matter what you have. If you get called, though, give way until you make something, because when this type of player calls, they get stubborn and call all the way. No point betting in this case unless you think you have the best hand. BUT. Games where you frequently have to steal blinds are not usually good games, unless you have the good fortune to sit between a maniac and a guy who always gives up his blind. :) Therefore, you should usually try to find a better game if you find you're having to steal a lot of blinds. | ||
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| Re: Blind stealing, Roy Cooke, 28. Aug 2003 06:11 | ||
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| The blind stealing equation is based on: 1). The propensity to get away with it. 2). The value of your hand if called. 3). Your ability to "outplay" your opponents. The stronger the "points" allotted to each point...the stronger the value of the play! I hope that helps! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 27. Aug 2003 23:25 OUTLAW wrote: > Hey guys, > Lately Ive been wondering just how profitable blind stealing really is in > your typical 5-10 B&M holdem game. I will play what I feel is a solid game for a > while and then I'll pick up that A3o or K9o on the button/ cutoff and I'll throw > in a raise only to get played with by one of the blinds. > Then I wont hit but will bet when checked to, get called, get checked to > again on the turn, now either throw in another 10 or slow down which I hate to > do after already putting 15. > I feel that this is where my profits get eaten up. Please help. | ||
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| Re: Blind stealing, Roy Cooke, 28. Aug 2003 06:11 | ||
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| The blind stealing equation is based on: 1). The propensity to get away with it. 2). The value of your hand if called. 3). Your ability to "outplay" your opponents. The stronger the "points" allotted to each point...the stronger the value of the play! I hope that helps! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 27. Aug 2003 23:25 OUTLAW wrote: > Hey guys, > Lately Ive been wondering just how profitable blind stealing really is in > your typical 5-10 B&M holdem game. I will play what I feel is a solid game for a > while and then I'll pick up that A3o or K9o on the button/ cutoff and I'll throw > in a raise only to get played with by one of the blinds. > Then I wont hit but will bet when checked to, get called, get checked to > again on the turn, now either throw in another 10 or slow down which I hate to > do after already putting 15. > I feel that this is where my profits get eaten up. Please help. | ||
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| Re: Blind stealing, noiseboy, 28. Aug 2003 10:19 | ||
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| Consider who is in the blinds before you steal. Against loose defenders, I like to have a real hand because it can be VERY profitable when they put you on a steal (the loose ones almost always do) when you have the goods. You loose a lot of your steal equity against these players because if the chance that they fold is small, then some hands might be more profitable to limp or just fold and let the SB and BB fight it out. | ||
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| Re: Blind stealing, Charles Kincy, 28. Aug 2003 11:33 | ||
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| I think the move of limping on the button against loose defenders is more appropriate in short-handed games, especially if there's a rake. The reason is because if you raise and successfully steal, you usually do not pay a rake. But if you just limp, you get dinged with the rake. When the pot is liable to be small, this makes a significant difference. But in a short-handed game, the rake is reduced or even waived, so it isn't as much of a factor. There's other reasons to limp--see S&M's HPFAP. | ||
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| Re: Blind stealing, noiseboy, 28. Aug 2003 13:31 | ||
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| Good point. Where I do most of my playing, it's a time charge so I don't really consider the rake that much. However, I've started at UB, so I need to think about how the rake affects things. | ||
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| Re: Blind stealing, FK, 28. Aug 2003 22:03 | ||
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| I think calling on the button in a shorthanded game is almost always wrong, because you give the BB a flop for free, which means you are giving your opponent infinite odds (it doesn't matter if you can outplay your opponent most of the time). Against loose defenders I just wait for a good heads up hand, if it isn't good enough to raise with then just dump it. If the defender is really weak at postflop play, I would loosen up a bit though. This is just my opinion, I don't know if I'm right. :) | ||
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| Re: Blind stealing, Charles Kincy, 29. Aug 2003 23:09 | ||
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| Most of the value in a steal-raise is that your opponents will frequently fold and give you an easy 1 1/2 bet profit. The more often they fold, the less you need--but the less often they fold, the more you need. If they always call, you need the BEST hands, but this creates a paradox in a short-handed game by which you can't afford to wait. So you play a lot of hands, and you limp with them. The reason this isn't right in a full game is that it is usually either loose (in which case you can afford to wait for a good hand or a larger pot) or tight (in which case you'll often win the blinds). There are some weird edge cases--in those cases you should change seats or even change games. | ||
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| Re: Blind stealing, FK, 29. Aug 2003 23:31 | ||
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| Could you explain how you play from the button preflop in a 3-handed holdem game? Let's say you know the big blind will always call a raise, and that he plays postflop as good as you. What hands do you fold? What hands to raise or call with? | ||
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| Re: Blind stealing, Charles Kincy, 30. Aug 2003 12:18 | ||
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| It also depends on what the little blind does. If he always calls when I limp, but almost never calls when I raise, I will probably raise except when I have a hand that plays well against both of them, in which case I would just limp. On the other hand, if he almost always calls a raise as well, then I would just limp, except with hands that do well against both players. If he appears to behave randomly, then I would try to raise or limp randomly (of course that's tough to do!) Obviously, you don't want to always do the same thing, but 3-handed it's easy to mix up your play enough to keep them guessing. The previous paragraph is just a general strategy. What kind of hands? Three-handed, you have to play almost everything. It's more a matter of what I *wouldn't* play. I would throw away unsuited hands that had both cards below ten, except pairs. I would throw away even suited cards if they both were below 7, except for 54s, 65s. As to your original objection, the reason I'm willing to give the BB a free flop is because (a) I'm already in the worst position preflop without making the mistake of raising with a marginal hand (leaving BB free to call or reraise), (b) I'll have the best position postflop, (c) by showing weakness, a lot of time BB will lead or checkraise with crap, leaving me the opportunity to outplay them, (d) there's few decisions to be made preflop--I'm going to be playing a lot of hands. Shouldn't I defer my investment to a point where I have more information about my hand and theirs, rather than just blindly raising the stakes on almost no information? That's why limping on the button in a 3-handed game isn't as horrible as it sounds, and sometimes it's just the best play. | ||
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| Re: Blind stealing, FK, 1. Sep 2003 16:50 | ||
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| Thanks for the advice, I'll think about what you have said. :) | ||
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