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Server Time: 2/13/2012 7:40:48 PM PACIFIC |
 Professional status?, Wingnut, 27. Aug 2003 13:45 | ||
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| For the past few years I have played in live and online poker rooms in my spare time. By no means do I claim to be the greatest poker player that ever was, but I play very tight and have consistently won money over the years. I am considering devoting more time to my poker play, and i was wondering what is involved in the process of playing poker as a profession? What exactly is involved in declaring and becoming a professional poker player? | ||
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| Re: Professional status?, DallasPokerFan, 27. Aug 2003 14:22 | ||
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| Not being a pro myself, meaning a similar decision would face me .. I would say, if you're confident that you can win 1 big bet an hour for 30 hours per week, 47 weeks per year, the following chart can be helpful. It assumes taxes, insurance, all the things you're getting now, and a bankroll of 500 big bets: Game Net Income Required Bankroll 5/10 $8,460 $5,000 10/20 $16,920 $10,000 20/40 $33,840 $20,000 50/100 $84,600 $50,000 150/300 $253,800 $150,000 300/600 $507,600 $300,000 Of course, this makes a lot of assumptions. But, in order to make, say, $85,000 per year after taxes, insurance, etc., you need a bankroll of $50,000 to "invest" in your new career. SO, if you've saved $50,000 and can play well at the 50/100 level, I'd say, take your shot! Oh, and be totally debt-free, except for a house loan. But that is only my opinion | ||
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| Re: Professional status?, Mark Gregorich, 27. Aug 2003 15:02 | ||
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| I am in my tenth year as a professional player, and here are a few observations concerning playing for a living: First, recognize that there is a big difference in playing recreationally or as a form of supplemental income versus playing as your sole source of income. It is now a job. A job without benefits such as pension plans, health insurance, and paid vacations. Although you are technically your own boss, if you take too much time off your bankroll will erode from inactivity. Do you have the self-discipline needed to play (and play well) all the time, even when it feels like "work?" You must be able to mentally weather the financial swings of poker. To do this, you must maintain a large bankroll. You can't play good poker when you worry about going broke, and when your fate hinges on every decision or every session. Also, you must have the discipline not to spend your bankroll - this is business capital, not spending money! Yes, if you are a professional, you must live off this money, but set a monthly salary for yourself, and don't deviate from it based on whether you won or lost for the month. If you worry that one bad month can put a crimp in your lifestyle, you either are playing too high or don't have a big enough bankroll to be playing professionally. You must love the game. I think that people who love their jobs tend to perform better in them, and you truly have to go earn your paycheck in poker. That said, most professionals I see have lost their love for the game. Years of dealing with poker's swings and bad beats take their toll. They may still be winning players, but they are miserable people. You must stay on guard against this and work for ways to keep the game fresh and interesting (it can be done - I still enjoy what I'm doing!) I also recommend that you play "semi-professionally" for a period of time, probably at least 6 months, before you cut your ties with your former occupation. Depending on what you do for a living now, it is good to have something to fall back on. When I started playing for a living, I took a year off from my job as a high school teacher, with the job waiting for me 12 months later should I want to go back. I moved to Vegas with a relatively small bankroll (but my expenses were virtually nil - single, no debt, car paid off, living in an apartment). If things didn't work out, I could always go back to teaching. Also, I had been playing poker fairly seriously for about 5 years already, playing in Washington state as well as in Vegas 4 or 5 times a year, and had been a consistent winner. Where you decide to live is also a big decision. I suppose now its feasible to live anywhere and play on the internet, but as for real cardrooms, it is necessary to live in relatively close proximity to one with consistent action. Overall, poker has been good to me, and I have no regrets. However, I recognize that I am in a small minority here - most people who attempt to play professionally fail. And it isn't always easy - I occasionally go through rough stretches which become very stressful. I am now married and have 3 kids, so supporting 5 people on my poker income is definitely a challenge. Had I stayed in education, though, supporting 5 people on a teacher's salary would be even tougher. Overall, life as a poker player for me has been quite good. I am able to structure my time very flexibly (I feel I have been able to spend much more time with my young children than if I had a regular job), travel (my wife and I have taken some poker cruises, which we enjoy, plus we have the freedom to take off whenever we feel like it), meet interesting people from every walk of life (I think I have made friends through poker with people from practically every state), and the income is decent - I could probably make more money doing something else, but would have to sacrifice too much time. Poker can produce a rewarding and satisfying lifestyle, but it takes large quantites of determination, self-discipline, patience, and objectivity (know yourself and your limitations). Mark Gregorich | ||
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| Re: Professional status?, Mark Gregorich, 27. Aug 2003 15:03 | ||
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| I am in my tenth year as a professional player, and here are a few observations concerning playing for a living: First, recognize that there is a big difference in playing recreationally or as a form of supplemental income versus playing as your sole source of income. It is now a job. A job without benefits such as pension plans, health insurance, and paid vacations. Although you are technically your own boss, if you take too much time off your bankroll will erode from inactivity. Do you have the self-discipline needed to play (and play well) all the time, even when it feels like "work?" You must be able to mentally weather the financial swings of poker. To do this, you must maintain a large bankroll. You can't play good poker when you worry about going broke, and when your fate hinges on every decision or every session. Also, you must have the discipline not to spend your bankroll - this is business capital, not spending money! Yes, if you are a professional, you must live off this money, but set a monthly salary for yourself, and don't deviate from it based on whether you won or lost for the month. If you worry that one bad month can put a crimp in your lifestyle, you either are playing too high or don't have a big enough bankroll to be playing professionally. You must love the game. I think that people who love their jobs tend to perform better in them, and you truly have to go earn your paycheck in poker. That said, most professionals I see have lost their love for the game. Years of dealing with poker's swings and bad beats take their toll. They may still be winning players, but they are miserable people. You must stay on guard against this and work for ways to keep the game fresh and interesting (it can be done - I still enjoy what I'm doing!) I also recommend that you play "semi-professionally" for a period of time, probably at least 6 months, before you cut your ties with your former occupation. Depending on what you do for a living now, it is good to have something to fall back on. When I started playing for a living, I took a year off from my job as a high school teacher, with the job waiting for me 12 months later should I want to go back. I moved to Vegas with a relatively small bankroll (but my expenses were virtually nil - single, no debt, car paid off, living in an apartment). If things didn't work out, I could always go back to teaching. Also, I had been playing poker fairly seriously for about 5 years already, playing in Washington state as well as in Vegas 4 or 5 times a year, and had been a consistent winner. Where you decide to live is also a big decision. I suppose now its feasible to live anywhere and play on the internet, but as for real cardrooms, it is necessary to live in relatively close proximity to one with consistent action. Overall, poker has been good to me, and I have no regrets. However, I recognize that I am in a small minority here - most people who attempt to play professionally fail. And it isn't always easy - I occasionally go through rough stretches which become very stressful. I am now married and have 3 kids, so supporting 5 people on my poker income is definitely a challenge. Had I stayed in education, though, supporting 5 people on a teacher's salary would be even tougher. Overall, life as a poker player for me has been quite good. I am able to structure my time very flexibly (I feel I have been able to spend much more time with my young children than if I had a regular job), travel (my wife and I have taken some poker cruises, which we enjoy, plus we have the freedom to take off whenever we feel like it), meet interesting people from every walk of life (I think I have made friends through poker with people from practically every state), and the income is decent - I could probably make more money doing something else, but would have to sacrifice too much time. Poker can produce a rewarding and satisfying lifestyle, but it takes large quantites of determination, self-discipline, patience, and objectivity (know yourself and your limitations). Mark Gregorich | ||
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| Re: Professional status?, CraigTauterouff, 27. Aug 2003 15:12 | ||
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| ty Mark im glad to hear this from u because at my young age of 15 no even able to gamble yet im already preparing to play professionally i have read about 3 books now and and reading a fourth im currently playing on poker pages and yahoo and a few other real poker rooms in at the play money tables i really appreciate what u have said if u have any other advice for me just leave it thanks craig | ||
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| Re: Professional status?, stdioh, 28. Aug 2003 10:35 | ||
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| In order to file your taxes as a professional you need to meet some strict criteria. You need to show results of 3 profitable years where poker was your major source of income. So what you need to do is start playing professional-like until you can file professionally and then you'll be able to expense gas, half of meals, etc, etc. | ||
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