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Server Time: 2/12/2012 5:42:07 AM PACIFIC |
 Any way around this--Hand Q, mkpoker, 26. Aug 2003 22:26 | ||
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| Lost a big pot on this hand at UB. I'm unsure if there was anything I could have done differently. Is this one of those hands on which we're pre-destined to take a beating? (This table was playing pretty tough, but I didn't have very well defined impressions of my opponents) From the BB, I'm dealt AJo. Three limpers to the button, who raises. SB and I call, along with two of the original limpers. Flop comes JQA rainbow. SB bets, I raise, MP reraises (which alarms me). Button folds, SB calls. I call. Turn is a low heart (7 I think), which puts a flush draw on the board. SB checks. I bet. MP raises (which continues to alarm me). SB folds. I reraise (largely for the purpose of gaining information from MP). He reraises (caps). I guess he's on AQ at this point and I'm in serious trouble. However, the pot is big enough that I'm reluctant to fold. So I call. River is another blank (3s, I think) and removes the flush possibility. I check. MP bets. I call. I expect him to turn over AQ, but he shows KT for the nut straight (which he flopped). Questions: 1. Was my reraise on the turn a bad play? 2. Was MP's original raise on the turn definitive enough to warrant a fold right there (I don't think so, but I'm open contrary opinions)? 3. Regardless of what you think of my turn reraise, was it a mistake to call his reraise (cap) and river bet (an additional 2BB) clinging to the slim hope that either a) he was overplaying his hand and didn't have me beat (maybe with AK or QJ) and/or b) I might get lucky on the river? As always, I appreciate your comments, good, bad and ugly. mk | ||
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| Re: Any way around this--Hand Q, EC, 26. Aug 2003 22:46 | ||
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| I don't think you should have folded, but I do think slowing down would have been in order. There isn't much to reraise the flop with that won't beat you. Can't put him on AA, AK, QQ or JJ, he likely would have raised with those pre-flop. He should have raised with AQ preflop, but I suppose you can't count on that at all. I would say on the flop after his reraise I'd put him on AQ, KT, QJ or maybe AT, depending on how aggressive he is. I don't think he would reraise with Ax to protect it, it's too scary of a flop and clearly he wasn't afraid of it. Again, I can't make myself fold this hand, not knowing the player well. It does seem to me like slowing down (check-call) and paying off is the right thing to do, at least save 2BB. Of course I've been wrong before, see my other posts. Eli on 26. Aug 2003 22:26 mkpoker wrote: > Lost a big pot on this hand at UB. I'm unsure if there was anything I could > have done differently. Is this one of those hands on which we're pre-destined > to take a beating? (This table was playing pretty tough, but I didn't have very > well defined impressions of my opponents) > > From the BB, I'm dealt AJo. Three limpers to the button, who raises. SB and I > call, along with two of the original limpers. Flop comes JQA rainbow. SB bets, > I raise, MP reraises (which alarms me). Button folds, SB calls. I call. > > Turn is a low heart (7 I think), which puts a flush draw on the board. SB > checks. I bet. MP raises (which continues to alarm me). SB folds. I reraise > (largely for the purpose of gaining information from MP). He reraises (caps). > I guess he's on AQ at this point and I'm in serious trouble. However, the pot > is big enough that I'm reluctant to fold. So I call. > > River is another blank (3s, I think) and removes the flush possibility. I > check. MP bets. I call. I expect him to turn over AQ, but he shows KT for the > nut straight (which he flopped). > > Questions: > > 1. Was my reraise on the turn a bad play? > > 2. Was MP's original raise on the turn definitive enough to warrant a fold > right there (I don't think so, but I'm open contrary opinions)? > > 3. Regardless of what you think of my turn reraise, was it a mistake to call > his reraise (cap) and river bet (an additional 2BB) clinging to the slim hope > that either a) he was overplaying his hand and didn't have me beat (maybe with > AK or QJ) and/or b) I might get lucky on the river? > > As always, I appreciate your comments, good, bad and ugly. > > mk > > | ||
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| Re: Any way around this--Hand Q, Poker God, 26. Aug 2003 23:17 | ||
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| The flop raise was good and the call of the reraise was correct but you need to check the turn and just call down the hand at that point or throw it away.... With the SB betting and you raising hes either got the straight, top 2, a set or bottom 2 to make the 3 bet. At that point you need to make a very tough laydown or just call down the hand. on 26. Aug 2003 22:26 mkpoker wrote: > Lost a big pot on this hand at UB. I'm unsure if there was anything I could > have done differently. Is this one of those hands on which we're pre-destined > to take a beating? (This table was playing pretty tough, but I didn't have very > well defined impressions of my opponents) > > From the BB, I'm dealt AJo. Three limpers to the button, who raises. SB and I > call, along with two of the original limpers. Flop comes JQA rainbow. SB bets, > I raise, MP reraises (which alarms me). Button folds, SB calls. I call. > > Turn is a low heart (7 I think), which puts a flush draw on the board. SB > checks. I bet. MP raises (which continues to alarm me). SB folds. I reraise > (largely for the purpose of gaining information from MP). He reraises (caps). > I guess he's on AQ at this point and I'm in serious trouble. However, the pot > is big enough that I'm reluctant to fold. So I call. > > River is another blank (3s, I think) and removes the flush possibility. I > check. MP bets. I call. I expect him to turn over AQ, but he shows KT for the > nut straight (which he flopped). > > Questions: > > 1. Was my reraise on the turn a bad play? > > 2. Was MP's original raise on the turn definitive enough to warrant a fold > right there (I don't think so, but I'm open contrary opinions)? > > 3. Regardless of what you think of my turn reraise, was it a mistake to call > his reraise (cap) and river bet (an additional 2BB) clinging to the slim hope > that either a) he was overplaying his hand and didn't have me beat (maybe with > AK or QJ) and/or b) I might get lucky on the river? > > As always, I appreciate your comments, good, bad and ugly. > > mk > > | ||
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| Re: Any way around this--Hand Q, 4 POKER, 27. Aug 2003 01:02 | ||
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| on 26. Aug 2003 22:26 mkpoker wrote: > Lost a big pot on this hand at UB. I'm unsure if there was anything I could > have done differently. Is this one of those hands on which we're pre-destined > to take a beating? (This table was playing pretty tough, but I didn't have very > well defined impressions of my opponents) > > From the BB, I'm dealt AJo. Three limpers to the button, who raises. SB and I > call, along with two of the original limpers. Flop comes JQA rainbow. SB bets, > I raise, MP reraises (which alarms me). Button folds, SB calls. I call. > > Turn is a low heart (7 I think), which puts a flush draw on the board. SB > checks. I bet. MP raises (which continues to alarm me). SB folds. I reraise > (largely for the purpose of gaining information from MP). He reraises (caps). > I guess he's on AQ at this point and I'm in serious trouble. However, the pot > is big enough that I'm reluctant to fold. So I call. > > River is another blank (3s, I think) and removes the flush possibility. I > check. MP bets. I call. I expect him to turn over AQ, but he shows KT for the > nut straight (which he flopped). > > Questions: > > 1. Was my reraise on the turn a bad play? > > 2. Was MP's original raise on the turn definitive enough to warrant a fold > right there (I don't think so, but I'm open contrary opinions)? > > 3. Regardless of what you think of my turn reraise, was it a mistake to call > his reraise (cap) and river bet (an additional 2BB) clinging to the slim hope > that either a) he was overplaying his hand and didn't have me beat (maybe with > AK or QJ) and/or b) I might get lucky on the river? > > As always, I appreciate your comments, good, bad and ugly. > > mk > > Hey Mk, I think that after the hand was raised coming in preflop does add a little bit more merit (strategy) to the MP 3 bet on the flop with a nut hand, or one that has AJ beat. For the one reason that, at that point, he doesn't have to slow play his already made hand while knowing there are still players who are left to act, "and" that his hand can be drawn out on by maybe the button who raised it coming in, and, with a flop like that : (A-Q-J), anyone who holds a piece of it (and more than likely someone will).......gives his 3 bet raise even more merit to it. (I just like to look at this situation from where it started, which was the preflop raise, and from also trying to look at it from his perspective). The way that he played his hand would definitely be one way that I would play it as well. There's no need to slowplay it when you know you're going to get callers and perhaps even get bet into as well. A board like that will attract any player who has a good enough reason to call (or raise), and it's also the type of flop that will indeed cause someone to lose some extra bets with if they flopped a set (possibly a holding by the buttons preflop raise), someone who held a strong Ace, two pair, or a piece and a straight draw. That being said.........I do think that when the SB bet out and you raised it there, was a good and understandable raise........but, once the MP 3 bets you, and the majority of the field now folds (except for the SB).......I would have just called, or, you could have capped it there, but I wouldn't have lead at the turn. When you lead at the turn card, and he raises you again........putting him on a hand that does not have you beat is very unlikely, in my honest opinion. And, another point here is, (and it's from your perspective now)........if your bet on the turn was to try to at least eliminate the SB from calling (maybe to have the MP raise it again so the SB would fold), then you "accomplished" that when you lead at it again and the MP raised you here. The SB then folded, (which was very good for you here).......so for you to then reraise the MP again is where I mostly disagree with your play. (the turn). You're telling him that you have a very good hand, and he's STILL raising you. The one hand that he might have flopped that you would have beat is Q-J; and that *would* be an understandable 3 bet on the flop by him if he put you on just an Ace and was trying to eliminate the rest of the field by perhaps taking the rest of the hand heads up.That would be the type of play by somebody who was a little aggresive. But once you bet the turn, and he raises you again?.........The least I would put him on is A-Q, where putting him on the nuts (K-10) has to be a very strong possibility. And unless he's absolutely insane taking the *entire* situation at hand (not just the turn play).........He probably has A-Q, A-J, K-10, Q-J (or a remote chance of a flopped set), and the only hand there that you could beat would be Q-J. You were in a tough spot there, but after I think about it some more, I may even have just checked the turn with just the three of you in there (you probably have the SB drawing slim anyway), and just made a reluctant call on the river. There's just too much out there that would have you beat, BUT, you also have enough of it to warrant a call, and as to not get bluffed out of the pot.....a simple check-call on the turn and river would allow you to not get outplayed (that's if you're not able to throw your hand away).........and that way, you get to show your hand in the end, AND you save 4 big bets by doing so as well, when you're almost certain that your hand is no good. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Any way around this--Hand Q, Snorbolus, 27. Aug 2003 07:12 | ||
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| Mk, Like the others I don't much like your leading out on the turn; but I really hate your re-raise which you describe as "largely for the purpose of gaining information....". What information were you hoping to get and what were you planing to do with it? When MP capped you called anyway and then again on the river. If you weren't going to fold to a cap I don't see what you had to gain by re-raising. Personally I think that I would have just check-called the turn and river, let the SB limp along too and taken my chances that my hand might be good. In the games I play, I think that it would be sufficently often to justify calling down but not to put in any more bets of my own. Snorbolus on 26. Aug 2003 22:26 mkpoker wrote: > Lost a big pot on this hand at UB. I'm unsure if there was anything I could > have done differently. Is this one of those hands on which we're pre-destined > to take a beating? (This table was playing pretty tough, but I didn't have very > well defined impressions of my opponents) > > From the BB, I'm dealt AJo. Three limpers to the button, who raises. SB and I > call, along with two of the original limpers. Flop comes JQA rainbow. SB bets, > I raise, MP reraises (which alarms me). Button folds, SB calls. I call. > > Turn is a low heart (7 I think), which puts a flush draw on the board. SB > checks. I bet. MP raises (which continues to alarm me). SB folds. I reraise > (largely for the purpose of gaining information from MP). He reraises (caps). > I guess he's on AQ at this point and I'm in serious trouble. However, the pot > is big enough that I'm reluctant to fold. So I call. > > River is another blank (3s, I think) and removes the flush possibility. I > check. MP bets. I call. I expect him to turn over AQ, but he shows KT for the > nut straight (which he flopped). > > Questions: > > 1. Was my reraise on the turn a bad play? > > 2. Was MP's original raise on the turn definitive enough to warrant a fold > right there (I don't think so, but I'm open contrary opinions)? > > 3. Regardless of what you think of my turn reraise, was it a mistake to call > his reraise (cap) and river bet (an additional 2BB) clinging to the slim hope > that either a) he was overplaying his hand and didn't have me beat (maybe with > AK or QJ) and/or b) I might get lucky on the river? > > As always, I appreciate your comments, good, bad and ugly. > > mk > > | ||
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| Re: Any way around this--Hand Q, Mark, 27. Aug 2003 08:09 | ||
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| I also don't like the turn raise. What information were you looking for? especially when the bets are double? At best, he calls the reraise and the river. I like your flop play, however, a slightly cheaper way to play the hand would have been to cap the flop and then lead the turn. That should provide you with the same information but cost 1/2 bet less. If he still raises the turn you "know" your beat. If you were determined to show your hand down, check-calling the turn and river would not be a bad play. I know this would be passive poker, but you cannot be sure you're in the lead and you get to the river for as cheap as possible. With your turn reraise, what info were you hoping to get, and how would you use it with only one round left? He capped the turn and you figured you were beat, but you called anyway. So although you gained some informaiton, it did not save you any money, and in fact cost you an extra big bet. If you're going to raise for information, you should then act on the information received. If you had realized that you were going to call the turn if it was capped no matter what, then you should have saved you bet. That would get you to the showdown for 2 less big bets. Mark | ||
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| Re: Any way around this--Hand Q, Phish, 27. Aug 2003 09:19 | ||
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| I've no problem with your play. I only disagree with the reason you stated for reraising the turn, which was 'to gain information.' Information is valuable only if it can be used, and if gaining it early doesn't cost as much as gaining it late. Therefore it may make sense to put in an extra raise either pre-flop or on the flop to gain info and then acting on this info later. But on the turn, if you're re-raising just to find out whether you were beat, well, it would've been cheaper to just call the turn and river. In fact, it would've been just as cheap just call the turn and river vs. to reraise and fold when he capped. Finding out you were most likely beat wouldn't have been worth anything since you were committed to calling to the end anyway. Now there may be legitimate reasons to reraise in your situation against the right opponents, whether to protect your hand or to gain an extra bet. But 'gaining information' is not one of them. | ||
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| Re: Any way around this--Hand Q, Mark Barnett II, 27. Aug 2003 10:37 | ||
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| just curious what does MP stand for? figured it out i think (middle postion) | ||
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| Re: Any way around this--Hand Q, Schuster, 27. Aug 2003 11:52 | ||
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| Once someone 3 bets me on a board like this, I go into check and call mode. There are very few hands that he would 3 bet where you are still ahead, and if he has those hands (QJ, maybe *maybe* AK) he is drawing very slim to beat you. If you check and call, he will still bet it for you if you are winning. If you bet it yourself, he will only raise when you are beaten. After you lead the turn and he raises again, I would consider myself drawing to fill up, although I would probably make the crying call at the river. It is *very* likely that he has KT in this situation. Lee | ||
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| Re: Any way around this--Hand Q, Formless, 27. Aug 2003 14:59 | ||
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| I'd call the three-bet on the flop and check-call the turn and river. Calling the 3-bet on the flop then going bonkers on the turn doesn't mesh. I think you played it well up to the turn, but I think you made a big money mistake on the turn. It's a leak you can easily fix though, good luck. | ||
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