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She's a River, EC, 26. Aug 2003 22:10
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Not quite sure what my subject line means other than that I like the song of the same name and I've just about had it with the river. Anyways...

Thanks for all the advice on playing my first NL tourny tonight, I did accomplish my main goal of not making a jackass of myself and I felt relatively comfortable throughout. Needless to say I'm home early, and I'd like some thoughts on the hand that crippled me.

I was MP with QdJd, I called a $200 bet from an EP better (I don't consider him a great player, call it what you want but people who deck themselves out in clothes branded with the casino's name never strike me as that great, and he had played garbage before). T200 was double the big blind at this time, and my stack was approx. T2000, average size at the table. BB calls the bet, the 3 of us see the flop.

Flop comes down KJ5, with the K and 5 in diamonds. BB checks, EP better goes all in with T825. I put him on a weak king or jack, he looks ready to go home. I call his all in, and to my surprise the BB goes all in himself (his stack is T50 less than mine) So I have to decide whether to call him, which would practically end my night if I lose. I honestly don't know what to put him on at this point. All I know is that I have as many as 14 outs and, call it a hunch, I felt like they were all good. So I call based on those odds. Player was solid but not spectacular, and I had seen him check-raise all in a couple times before with overpairs in early position, which he didn't raise pre-flop. Other than that my observations of him were very few.

I'll finish the story in another post, but I'd like to know a couple things:

- how is my play at this point?
- what do you think he thought I had?
- what would you have done differently?

Thanks

Eli
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Re: She's a River, Nathaniel Brous, 26. Aug 2003 23:03
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on 26. Aug 2003 22:10 EC wrote:
<snip>
> - how is my play at this point?
> - what do you think he thought I had?
> - what would you have done differently?

1. Which point? If you mean committing the rest of you chips on your draw, I probably would have too. Of course that might depend on my goal in the tournament.
2. I think that he thought you had a draw (after all...you only called) and was likely trying to shut you out.
3. I would have folded to EP or gone all in and prayed. In general, I liken calling to sipping a little bit of poison. - Nathaniel Brous
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Re: She's a River, Paul Stine, 27. Aug 2003 07:36
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on 26. Aug 2003 22:10 EC wrote:
> Not quite sure what my subject line means other than that I like the song of the
> same name and I've just about had it with the river. Anyways...
>
> Thanks for all the advice on playing my first NL tourny tonight, I did
> accomplish my main goal of not making a jackass of myself and I felt relatively
> comfortable throughout. Needless to say I'm home early, and I'd like some
> thoughts on the hand that crippled me.
>
> I was MP with QdJd, I called a $200 bet from an EP better (I don't consider him
> a great player, call it what you want but people who deck themselves out in
> clothes branded with the casino's name never strike me as that great, and he had
> played garbage before). T200 was double the big blind at this time, and my
> stack was approx. T2000, average size at the table. BB calls the bet, the 3 of
> us see the flop.
>
> Flop comes down KJ5, with the K and 5 in diamonds. BB checks, EP better goes
> all in with T825. I put him on a weak king or jack, he looks ready to go home.
> I call his all in, and to my surprise the BB goes all in himself (his stack is
> T50 less than mine) So I have to decide whether to call him, which would
> practically end my night if I lose. I honestly don't know what to put him on at
> this point. All I know is that I have as many as 14 outs and, call it a hunch,
> I felt like they were all good. So I call based on those odds. Player was
> solid but not spectacular, and I had seen him check-raise all in a couple times
> before with overpairs in early position, which he didn't raise pre-flop. Other
> than that my observations of him were very few.
>
> I'll finish the story in another post, but I'd like to know a couple things:
>
> - how is my play at this point?

Um, dreadful? You entered a pot with insufficient card value behind a suspicious raise from a player in early position, early in a tournament, putting lots of chips at risk.

Then you flop second pair, second nut flush draw, and call an all-in raise with it (from the player that made the suspiciously small raise pre-flop.) There was about 700 in the pot and the EP player moves in for 825. At this point you are calling 825 to win 1525, that say that the is laying odds to your call of about 1.84:1. Not a good investment this early in the tournament, IMHO. You still have about 975 left in your stack. Pot is 2350.

Now, to make things even sweeter (note sarcastic tone) the BB moves in over the top of your call. Why would he make such a silly move? Because he flopped a hand that he's sure can beat both players! He isn't moving in to push you off the pot if he doesn't think he has the EP bettor beaten. He probably has a set of fives, maybe kings. I doubt he (BB) has the nut flush draw because he probably would have just called, figuring that if he hit he could take your chips at that point. Main pot is 3175, the uncalled side pot is about 925. You are getting 4100:925 (call it 4.4:1)on the entire pot. Of course, if you can't win the side pot you have no shot at the main pot.

To insure that the crash in truly horrific, you call, again.

There is an old saying that goes, "A bettor be, a caller never."

> - what do you think he thought I had?

Probably pretty much what you did have. Look at the facts, you flat called a small raise from an early position player. This screams, two big cards, maybe s00ted. Now, EP moves in and you flat call, again. Looks like you are on a draw or have a weak pair, maybe top pair without a kicker.

I think your BB has a set, EP has AK and you have 50 chips left.

> - what would you have done differently?

Folded before the flop. You have to ask yourself what hand you are looking to make before you decide to invest. With QdJd, just what hand are you hoping to make? Top pair, no kicker? Two pair? That's only about 50:1 against flopping. A straight? Second or third best flush?

In short, you made a marginal limit poker ring-game play in a no-limit tournament.

I'm sure this has all sounded pretty harsh. I can't really help that. These are important lessons to learn. You can't risk your precious, irreplacable tournament chips in situations in which you are not a favorite to win and expect to have long term positive results.

>
> Thanks
>
> Eli

Paul Stine
College Station, TX
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Re: She's a River, EC, 27. Aug 2003 10:00
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Harsh is fine, that's why I asked the questions.

The first all in player had K8o, which is the most I put him on, and I was comfortable using less than 1/2 my stack to beat him since all of my 14 outs x2 were good. The BB all in who I called turned over 9dSd and made a strange groaning sound as he saw my hand, he clearly wasn't happy. He likely put me on a draw that I would fold to an all in bet.

Here's the killer- turn and river were 96, the BB caught a miracle and beat us both.

The more I've thought about it, the more I think the biggest mistake I made was smooth calling the first all in rather than going over the top. I think if I had shown more aggression on the play he would have folded anything but a set since it would have sent him home, and I think he would have played a set faster in the face of a flush draw.

Playing the QJs in the first place I don't consider a problem- I know it's a marginal holding that can flop big, and most of the action at the table suggested that I could see the flop cheap with it, and people were playing far worse hands than this. Had someone raised it pre-flop, I would have folded. And like I said, I didn't really respect the play of the original raiser, he could have had anything (and it turns out he had very little).

Eli

on 27. Aug 2003 07:36 Paul Stine wrote:
> on 26. Aug 2003 22:10 EC wrote:
> > Not quite sure what my subject line means other than that I like the song of the
>
> > same name and I've just about had it with the river. Anyways...
> >
> > Thanks for all the advice on playing my first NL tourny tonight, I did
> > accomplish my main goal of not making a jackass of myself and I felt relatively
> > comfortable throughout. Needless to say I'm home early, and I'd like some
> > thoughts on the hand that crippled me.
> >
> > I was MP with QdJd, I called a $200 bet from an EP better (I don't consider him
> > a great player, call it what you want but people who deck themselves out in
> > clothes branded with the casino's name never strike me as that great, and he had
>
> > played garbage before). T200 was double the big blind at this time, and my
> > stack was approx. T2000, average size at the table. BB calls the bet, the 3 of
> > us see the flop.
> >
> > Flop comes down KJ5, with the K and 5 in diamonds. BB checks, EP better goes
> > all in with T825. I put him on a weak king or jack, he looks ready to go home.
>
> > I call his all in, and to my surprise the BB goes all in himself (his stack is
> > T50 less than mine) So I have to decide whether to call him, which would
> > practically end my night if I lose. I honestly don't know what to put him on at
>
> > this point. All I know is that I have as many as 14 outs and, call it a hunch,
> > I felt like they were all good. So I call based on those odds. Player was
> > solid but not spectacular, and I had seen him check-raise all in a couple times
> > before with overpairs in early position, which he didn't raise pre-flop. Other
> > than that my observations of him were very few.
> >
> > I'll finish the story in another post, but I'd like to know a couple things:
> >
> > - how is my play at this point?
>
> Um, dreadful? You entered a pot with insufficient card value behind a suspicious
> raise from a player in early position, early in a tournament, putting lots of chips
> at risk.
>
> Then you flop second pair, second nut flush draw, and call an all-in raise with it
> (from the player that made the suspiciously small raise pre-flop.) There was about
> 700 in the pot and the EP player moves in for 825. At this point you are calling 825
> to win 1525, that say that the is laying odds to your call of about 1.84:1. Not a
> good investment this early in the tournament, IMHO. You still have about 975 left in
> your stack. Pot is 2350.
>
> Now, to make things even sweeter (note sarcastic tone) the BB moves in over the top
> of your call. Why would he make such a silly move? Because he flopped a hand that
> he's sure can beat both players! He isn't moving in to push you off the pot if he
> doesn't think he has the EP bettor beaten. He probably has a set of fives, maybe
> kings. I doubt he (BB) has the nut flush draw because he probably would have just
> called, figuring that if he hit he could take your chips at that point. Main pot is
> 3175, the uncalled side pot is about 925. You are getting 4100:925 (call it 4.4:1)on
> the entire pot. Of course, if you can't win the side pot you have no shot at the main
> pot.
>
> To insure that the crash in truly horrific, you call, again.
>
> There is an old saying that goes, "A bettor be, a caller never."
>
> > - what do you think he thought I had?
>
> Probably pretty much what you did have. Look at the facts, you flat called a small
> raise from an early position player. This screams, two big cards, maybe s00ted. Now,
> EP moves in and you flat call, again. Looks like you are on a draw or have a weak
> pair, maybe top pair without a kicker.
>
> I think your BB has a set, EP has AK and you have 50 chips left.
>
> > - what would you have done differently?
>
> Folded before the flop. You have to ask yourself what hand you are looking to make
> before you decide to invest. With QdJd, just what hand are you hoping to make? Top
> pair, no kicker? Two pair? That's only about 50:1 against flopping. A straight?
> Second or third best flush?
>
> In short, you made a marginal limit poker ring-game play in a no-limit tournament.
>
> I'm sure this has all sounded pretty harsh. I can't really help that. These are
> important lessons to learn. You can't risk your precious, irreplacable tournament
> chips in situations in which you are not a favorite to win and expect to have long
> term positive results.
>
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Eli
>
> Paul Stine
> College Station, TX
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Re: She's a River, Jav, 27. Aug 2003 10:43
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Well, given the hands that your two opponents had, I think it makes even a greater arguement to not be involved in that hand. If you are playing against people who will go all-in with those hands, you really want to be very patient. There is a good opportunity for you to outplay both of them.

Remember, in NL tourneys suited cards are not that big of an improvement over unsuited cards. And the reason for that is that you do not want to be paying to draw to flushes. If you back into a flush on a hand that was already strong then it's an added bonus.

In a ring game it's okay to miss a flush several times in a row, and then hit it later. When you play it with the correct pot odds then when you do get paid off it will make up for the times you missed. But in a NL tournament, you rarely have the odds to draw to the flush; and even when you do if you miss it you can't just wait around until later when you actually do hit it, because all your chips are gone, and you're out of the tournament.
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Re: She's a River, Nathaniel Brous, 27. Aug 2003 11:54
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on 27. Aug 2003 10:00 EC wrote: <snip>
> Playing the QJs in the first place I don't consider a problem- I know it's a marginal holding that can flop big, and most of the action at the table suggested that I could see the flop cheap with it, and people were playing far worse hands than this. > Eli
I agree with you here. Paul gave you an excellent run down of the situation. This is the only place where I disagree with him. In the smaller tournaments, you don't always have time to wait for premium starters. The blinds escalate very quickly. I would have rather seen you limp in an unraised pot in late position. But... since you said you would likely to get in cheap well then ok. Besides QJs knocked Phil out of the Big One a few years ago and for that I will always hold it in high esteem ;)

A word on the OSF (oh shit factor). This feeling could have been avoided if you had either dumped or pumped the flop. Your opponent may have called you anyway (stranger things have happened) but then he would have been the one to sweat the decision.

When the OSF sneaks up on me in a tournament, I will always go with my gut. You figured yourself behind, but correctly thought if you improved, you would win. - Nathaniel Brous

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Re: She's a River, Schuster, 27. Aug 2003 12:04
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My comments are spliced within!

> Playing the QJs in the first place I don't consider a problem

I think this is the source of the problem. Other than going all in overtop of the first all in raiser, I'd have done things the same way after the flop. QJ is dominated 6 ways from sunday. You're a dog to AK, a small dog to TT and 99, and AQ, AJ, KQ, even KJ all have you by the balls. Let's not even talk about AA, KK, QQ, and JJ. If you flop top pair, you can't feel good about it -- your kicker is weak. If you flop 2 pair, you might be up against a set. Even flopping a straight leaves you vulnerable to redraws to the tight against a lot of raising hands. You're either going to win a small pot or lose a big pot here, and in a tournament, you don't want yourself in these types of situations.

> I know it's a marginal holding that can flop big, and most of the action at the table suggested that I could see
> the flop cheap with it

7-2o can flop big too. The point is that more often than not, you won't flop big. And most of the times that you do hit the flop, it won't be big enough to commit any significant amount of chips over. With someone suggesting strength, let it go and fight another day.

> and people were playing far worse hands than this. Had someone
> raised it pre-flop, I would have folded. And like I said, I didn't really respect the
> play of the original raiser, he could have had anything (and it turns out he had very
> little).

Exactly, he could have anything, up to and including the top hands that you should be afraid of. Just because someone is making a lot of open raises on shady cards does not mean you can call with holdings like this. I highly suggest you pick up Sklansky's tournament book and give it a read. Pay particular attention to the chapter on the gap concept. Basically, it states that you need a much stronger hand to call a raise with than to raise yourself. While this is true is ring games, it applies especially in tournaments since once you go broke, you're done. If I was in front of a total maniac who was raising it up about half the hands, I still wouldn't play with that QJ.

Lee
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Re: She's a River, Jav, 27. Aug 2003 10:32
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I was one of the people who responded to your "First NL Tourney" post. And my biggest peice of advice was to stay away from drawing hands!

While you did flop middle pair with your flush draw, you don't really want to play that hand three way. Heads up you might make a large bet with it, but you don't really want to call any large bets. Especially with players left to act, because sometimes you end up in your situation; where you find that both your opponents are willing to go all-in. You want to get out of that hand, and let one of them knock the other one out.

Even players you don't respect can get dealt, AK, AA, KK, JJ, AQ, or numerous other hands that could put your chance of winning the hand at about 50%. Some players will even raise with Axs (you need to know which players will do this). In a NL tournament I want to stay away from too many chancy calls, because eventually you'll be wrong or you'll be drawn out on. Survival is the most important thing. In a ring game it could be different.

Anyway how did it finish?
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Re: She's a River, EC, 27. Aug 2003 17:06
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on 27. Aug 2003 10:32 Jav wrote:
> I was one of the people who responded to your "First NL Tourney" post. And my
> biggest peice of advice was to stay away from drawing hands!
>
I know, and I read your post, all I can now say is "D'oh!" One of the things I need to learn AND do (rather than learn, since I already learned it) is to avoid drawing hands in NL, with the knowledge that I can be more patient in a NL tournament than a limit one, being that I can make a lot more money by doubling through people with a monster hand than I could by picking up bets making draws in limit. That plus the obvious that often you can only miss a draw once in NL before you're on the way home.

I still liked my hand and don't regret playing it (no point in regretting anything), but I guess the guy sucking out runner-runner is my penance for playing it in the first place. Just because I CAN see a flop for cheap doesn't necessarily mean I should.

Eli
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